The Modern Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit

In the sermon I’m linking to below, Dr. John MacArthur, pastor of Grace Community Church, calls out the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) and some of their chief apostles by name.  Mike Bickle, C. Peter Wagner, and Cindy Jacobs all receive honorable mentions.

MacArthur compares the movement to a nut house.  He touches upon dominionism, staking, spiritual mapping, Baal, Jezebel, and other things.  T. D. Jakes was called out too.  It’s so refreshing to hear Dr. MacArthur call the NAR out and show it for what it really is… blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

You won’t want to miss this.

To listen to the sermon, please click here.

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74 Responses to The Modern Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit

  1. ian vincent says:

    With as much scripture truth as brother John MacArthur indeed has, has he ever cast out demons from a person in Jesus name?

    If he has, Praise God.

    If a person started manifesting a demon in their church (was actually demon possessed) would they have the “dunamis” (power from on high) to cast it out? Or do they believe such power ceased with the Apostles, so they are powerless to do anything about it?

    http://ianvincent.wordpress.com/

  2. annunk says:

    The only thing I can truly, from my heart, say after delving into this is this: AMEN.

    WHEN is today’s Christianity going to quit falling for every new and different thing that comes along? WHEN?!!?? are they going to AGAIN go BACK to their Bibles and scout out the truth for themselves?!!?
    I am truly sickened by the destruction these wolves in sheeps clothing have been vomiting out and all over the body and few, VERY FEW even care to think about it, let alone discuss it.

    If we, believers, are sickened by this, can you only imagine the terrible sadness our Heavenly Father feels for this muck being sprewed about in His name!

  3. Mike says:

    I love Dr. MacArthur!! He is, by far, my favorite preacher/teacher. His solid exegesis and no holds barred stand for the truth is a refreshing change to the crap I see on TV and in America’s pulpits. More pastors need to be calling these people out BY NAME. It does no good to tell people about the arsonist in the neighborhood but not tell them their name. I’ve been talking to my own pastor about being more forthcoming with names of false teachers because we have a large group of brand new believers in my church that need to know who NOT to listen to as much as they need to know who they SHOULD listen to!

    Thank you, Dr. Mac. God bless you!!

    In His service,

    Mike

  4. Javanut says:

    You might want to check out Lee Grady’s latest http://t.co/HGtEMhlH on the reform that is needed in the charismatic circles.

  5. shane says:

    Yep MacArthur is spot on, great sermon. The Holy Spirit it blasphemed quite regularly in the pent/chars movements.

    I am sure MacArthur can handle the demon possessed. Just because one does not speak in gibberish and participate in disorderly worship services does not mean one has no “power”. Why is it that people in the chars/pent movement always seem to be hung up on power? Seems like it and gifts of the Spirit are spoken of more than the Cross.

  6. Lady D says:

    The best 43 minutes that I spent today – wonderful teaching on the precious Holy Spirit.

  7. JG says:

    I am looking forward to listening to this when I have time. Watching the ‘anything goes’ prophetic movement that seems to emphasize emotions and alleged experiences over the scripture has been an interesting, albeit sad, lesson. It’s been kind of like watching a slow motion car crash. Where else but the Lakeland group have you seen people claiming, without any evidence whatsoever, dozens of resurrections from the dead?

    I hope for better things for those ensnared in this movement, as well as for all of us.

  8. Robert L. says:

    I certainly have a great amount of respect for Dr.John MacArthur, hands down, one of my favorite pastors ever. Many times in the past, he has clarified many obscure passages for me.

    The question I have is, is every ‘ trip to heaven ‘ bogus ? Someone gave me a book a while back
    about a little boy named Colton Burpo, the son of a rural baptist pastor, who went to heaven as a young boy when he died in a hospital. His book ” Heaven Is For Real ” has already sold some 1,500,000 copies. The book seemed realistic and genuine. The only thing I wonder about sometimes is, if the apostle Paul couldn’t talk about his experience in the 3rd heaven, does that mean also that this little boy, who did in fact die, should not have ? Any ideas ?

  9. Rev Limiter says:

    ian:
    Want to get rid of demons (in non believers)? Simple; preach Christ! Blessings-

  10. IWTT says:

    Ian,

    I am sure that if a demon manifested JM would know what to do. He does have a series on Spiritual Warfare on the GTY web site.

    1) The Armor of God
    2) The Believers Armor
    3) Delivered by God
    4) Delieverd to Satan
    5) Spiritual Warfare: Fighting to Win
    6) Winning the Private War Against Temptation
    many others…

  11. Teresa says:

    Ian Vincent,
    I am not trying to ruffle your feather’s but you seem to have an axe to grind concerning John MacArthur….even when he is speaking truth and exposing false teachers. This is not the first time I have read a nasty remark from you with sarcasms toward John MacArthur.
    One could ask…..Do you believe to have this special dunamis power from on high to cast out demons. Jesus reminded the discilples in Luke 10: 20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

    God does not give more power to these special “Elite groups” or so called apostles or prophets and not to others whom he has called to preach the Gospel. Only the gospel has the power to change hearts and save a man soul. Christ alone…..Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. Cast a devil out and then what. . As Rev. Limiter said Preach Christ!

    JThis is my own opinion, John MacArthur is one of the most sound preaches out there today and I think John MacArthur would have no problem in speaking the Word of God and doing what is necessary in a service to take care of someone who is demon possessed.
    My hat goes off of John Macarthur.

    Shane Amen to your comment.

  12. jude newman says:

    Robert L a website about all these supposed trips to heaven. Really it shows how gullible people are, a little boy says he went to heaven and people believe him!!!!
    http://www.so4j.com/false-visits-to-heaven-and-hell.php#your_best_afterlife_now_justin_peters

  13. ian vincent says:

    So Jesus and the apostles were wrong to cast out demons? They should have just preached to the demonized?

    When the disciples couldn’t cast out a demon, Jesus rebuked them for their unbelief.

    The same rebuke applies today for us if we are powerless to cast out demons.

    http://ianvincent.wordpress.com/

  14. Bud Press says:

    Robert L.:

    The answer to your question, “is every ‘trip to heaven’ bogus?” is found in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4. Note verse 4, which clearly states, “How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.”

    The Apostle Paul was instructed to say nothing about what he saw and heard. Yet, many within the Prophetic Movement claim they are transported in “portals” to heaven, talk to prophets and apostles, visit the throne room of “God,” see and talk to “Jesus,” and more. It’s a bunch of garbage from the mouths of idiots who claim to have a better understanding of “God” than Old Testament prophets and New Testament apostles.

    Heaven is the final resting place for true Christians, but not until a change takes place (see 1 Corinthians 15:50-58).

    Bud Press

  15. Ruitje says:

    This was a great sermon. MacArthur speaks about the HOLY Spirit. He is Holy, not a force that we can use to for our benefit.

  16. Sean says:

    MacArthur is absolutely right.

    The Holy Spirit doesn’t need to be defended, but people need to be warned about what they are getting into. So-called “christians” involved in the practices of crediting demonic activities to the Holy Spirit should consider how this anger’s the Lord before they have to face Him at their time of judgement.

  17. Darrel says:

    It is frightening to watch as the truth of Scripture is presented and witness it falling on deaf ears. The Holy Spirit did not die with the apostles nor has His ability to do His job been diminished. He does not need me to do His job. The PCs love to talk about demons and how much the (supposed) Holy Spirit has done with their “ministry”. The SBCs love to talk about their free-will and how much their help was needed in order for them to be “saved”. Both are golden calves.

    Robert, Colton’s “visit” to heaven is a hoax and a cruel one at that. There is no support in Scripture for any of his claims, the most laughable of which was “Jesus” helped him with his homework. Paul was caught up to the third heaven (first heaven is the atmosphere, the second is the stars, planets, galaxies, etc., the third is the current abode of God) and not allowed to speak of it at all, much less sell 1.5 mil. copies at how many $$$? If the death and resurrection of Jesus is not enough to cause men to repent and seek forgiveness a false view of heaven surely won’t be enough either.

  18. Gene Schwartz says:

    Have listened to this sermon twice now and am in the midst of the third. Placed it on facebook with a short written intro. I’m praying that many pentecostal/charasmatic friends will take time to listen and carefully consider what’s being said. Expecting that the words “religious spirit” or “pharisee” will be in somebodys feedback comment and maybe be unfriended by a few. So many mistakenly believe that because a person uses Biblical discernment to measure all so-called Holy Spirit manifestations that they are therefore opposed to any spiritual power available to the beliver from God according to His sovereignty.

    Case in point: Last night a refugee from the Congo (who with her 5 sisters came to America after their husbands and brothers were murdered in war) had to have gall bladder stones removed at a hospital here in Grand Rapids. They’re godly women who have little but have great genuine faith. After the operation we had to wait several hours for her to urinate because they would not send her home until she had. Several hours went by without success. While talking to the nurse at the desk a sister partially opened a curtain and asked me to come in. After a moment of small talk the 2 sisters (thru broken English) implored pray, pray , you pray. And it hit me. Their faith was saying to me, who they saw as a man of God, let’s pray and God will end this waiting. Wow, how could I have been so dense as to have not been praying . So we prayed. There was no commanding of Satan to be bound, no speaking to the illness, no decreeing and declaring, no declaring war against territorial spirits, or any such nonsense. Simply praying and trusting God for her body to respond to His touch.

    After going back to waiting room, I continued to pray a couple more times until sensing that no more prayer was necessary. Within 2 minutes, a nurse came thru the door and said it was done. Do I believe in the supernatural power of God? Of course. Do I believe most of what passes as Holy Spirit manifestations coming from false teachers, apostles, and prophets? I’ll stand with Scripture and MacArthur.

    • Likeflint says:

      Now this is the type of story that I find motivating. No grandstanding or shouting or theatrics, just simply obedience to the Lord, and serving others. May God bless you and the people you helped.

  19. BARRY says:

    Nice Gene,discernment along with testing what is goin on is the key to flushing out what is of the Lord and what is not.I enjoyed reading your post.

  20. Teresa says:

    Ian,

    I have some questions to ask you directly.
    Have you personally been involved with this paticular group called the New Apostolic Reformation?
    Have you personally casted demons out of a person or persons?
    Are you an expert on this matter of casting out demons?

    I have been in services where exorcism has taken place. Female pastor who just happened to be under Bill Hamon. She was nothing but a demon chasing, devil stomping nut.
    She would call you out by name, then line everyone up front and cover them wilth blankets so people could not see what was manifesting in the front. They were told that this would happen and that would happen before they started. Things did manifest, people would puck, roll on the floor, all kinds of crazy stuff. These people that she was exercising this on were believed by all “to be saved”
    The very thing that she said would happen did “manifested” itself. I can not help but believe it was because she what would happen. happened…, powerer of suggestion. You how I know this because I was one of them.
    She began to prophesied over me and then she proceeded to tell me that I was gang raped at the age of sixteen and she need to cast those spirit’s out of me. Guess what? I was never gang raped in my life, not even at the age of sixteen. I manage to make my way to the back of the church crawling but praise God I did get away unhurt. People can be hurt by this. Where do those spirits go? becasue I did not hear them commanding them to go any place in particular. Dangerous is what I believe not unbelief.

    Ian, I am under the impression that you believe that “believer’s” can be possessed by demons or spirits…..Is that true?
    These people believe that christian’s ” believer’s” are and can be possessed by demon’s. Please show me that in the scriptures.
    I believe that “believers can be oppressed but not possessed.
    The Holy Spirit can not dwell or live with a demon.

    This movment has a demonic name for every person place and thing.

    One of my favorite website’s is Got Question’s. I believe they are well balanced and scriptually right on when it comes to matter’s such as this.

    Question: “Can a Christian be demon possessed? Can a Christian be demonized?”

    Answer: While the Bible does not explicitly state whether a Christian can be possessed by a demon, related biblical truths make it abundantly clear that Christians cannot be demon possessed. There is a distinct difference between being possessed by a demon and being oppressed or influenced by a demon. Demon possession involves a demon having direct/complete control over the thoughts and/or actions of a person (Matthew 17:14-18; Luke 4:33-35; 8:27-33). Demon oppression or influence involves a demon or demons attacking a person spiritually and/or encouraging him/her into sinful behavior. Notice that in all the New Testament passages dealing with spiritual warfare, there are no instructions to cast a demon out of a believer (Ephesians 6:10-18). Believers are told to resist the devil (James 4:7; 1 Peter 5:8-9), not to cast him out.

    Christians are indwelt by the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:9-11; 1 Corinthians 3:16; 6:19). Surely the Holy Spirit would not allow a demon to possess the same person He is indwelling. It is unthinkable that God would allow one of His children, whom He purchased with the blood of Christ (1 Peter 1:18-19) and made into a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17), to be possessed and controlled by a demon. Yes, as believers, we wage war with Satan and his demons, but not from within ourselves. The apostle John declares, “You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the One who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world” (1 John 4:4). Who is the One in us? The Holy Spirit. Who is the one in the world? Satan and his demons. Therefore, the believer has overcome the world of demons, and the case for demon possession of a believer cannot be made scripturally.

    With the strong biblical evidence that a Christian cannot be demon possessed in view, some Bible teachers use the term “demonization” to refer to a demon having control over a Christian. Some argue that while a Christian cannot be demon possessed, a Christian can be demonized. Typically, the description of demonization is virtually identical to the description of demon possession. So, the same issue results. Changing the terminology does not change the fact that a demon cannot inhabit or take full control of a Christian. Demonic influence and oppression are realities for Christians, no doubt, but it is simply not biblical to say that a Christian can be possessed by a demon or demonized.

    Much of the reasoning behind the demonization concept is the personal experience of seeing someone who was “definitely” a Christian exhibiting evidence of being controlled by a demon. It is crucially important, though, that we do not allow personal experience to influence our interpretation of Scripture. Rather, we must filter our personal experiences through the truth of Scripture (2 Timothy 3:16-17). Seeing someone whom we thought to be a Christian exhibiting the behavior of being demonized should cause us to question the genuineness of his/her faith. It should not cause us alter our viewpoint on whether a Christian can be demon possessed / demonized. Perhaps the person truly is a Christian but is severely demon oppressed and/or suffering from severe psychological problems. But again, our experiences must meet the test of Scripture, not the other way around.

  21. Bud Press says:

    Casting out demons? Check out this well-written article at
    http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-exorcism.html

    Also, Jude 1:9 teaches that Michael the Archangel left the rebuking to Jesus Christ:

    “But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, ‘The Lord rebuke you!'”

    Bud Press

  22. shane says:

    People don’t like MacArthur because he uses Scripture do disprove peoples silliness. Charismatics and Pentecostals especially don’t like him because he irons out the Scriptures that they twist to suit their error filled theology.

  23. Frances marie says:

    Hi Heard MacArthurs msg and was very glad to hear it. I consider myself as “pentacostal” but am actually a follower of Christ. I am a minister also and when I preach I do preach Christ and Him Crucified, as Paul received this revelation from God. The Holy Spirit is part of the Godhead and is to be acknowledged. Since the fulfillment of the total atonement of Jesus Christ for us, the Holy Spirit does come to live in us “whosoever believe” by faith and by faith and belief alone.
    I thank God for the Holy Spirit who is my counselor, and convictor. Not all Pentacostals are blasphemers of the Holy Spirit. Yes name those who are:: like names not a denomination
    ” There is some of the church in all the church but not all the church is the church” Pastor Rod Parsely quote. fran

  24. BARRY says:

    I listened to Macarthurs message,it was bang on,thanks Gene.I would encourage everyone to give it a listen

  25. ray says:

    quote
    Want to get rid of demons (in non believers)? Simple; preach Christ! Blessings-

    ………………
    Right on !! , it is Christ who sweeps the house clean.

  26. ray says:

    Quote
    So Jesus and the apostles were wrong to cast out demons? They should have just preached to the demonized?

    When the disciples couldn’t cast out a demon, Jesus rebuked them for their unbelief.

    The same rebuke applies today for us if we are powerless to cast out demons.
    ……………………
    Ian
    I take it then that you are also playing with cobra’s and drinking deadly poisons?

  27. shane says:

    @ray
    “Ian
    I take it then that you are also playing with cobra’s and drinking deadly poisons?”

    Most likely not. During my time in the pent/chars circles I never seen anyone taking those verses literally.

  28. ian vincent says:

    Mark 16 doesn’t say that believers will play with cobras or purposely drink poisons to test the word of God.

    To imply it does means you are mocking God’s word. You would have less credibility than Peter Wagner.

    http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-exorcism.html

    re: “Also, Jude 1:9 teaches that Michael the Archangel left the rebuking to Jesus Christ: ”

    .
    .
    .
    Totally irrelevant to the subject of casting demons out of people.

    This article is worse than anything the NAR puts out, by way of extra-biblical revelation. Where does the Bible say that casting demons out of people was to cease? It doesn’t, but people will gladly believe this extra-biblical revelation above the Word of God.

    Surely anyone can see that it’s a strawman aguement, and it also confuses the issue of casting out demons with spiritual warfare, whereas they are two different things.

    The NAR has taken spiritual warfare off into unbiblical realms, but it seems that some critics of the NAR are even more unbiblical.

    To establish doctrine simply on the basis of current errant practices, is even more stupid than the peope who practice those things..

    http://ianvincent.wordpress.com/

  29. ian vincent says:

    Re:
    http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-exorcism.html

    quote

    The book of Ephesians gives clear instructions on how we are to have victory in **our lives** in the battle against the forces of evil. The first step is placing our faith in Christ (2:8-9), which breaks the rule of “the prince of power of the air” (2:2). We are then to choose, again by God’s grace, to put off ungodly habits and to put on godly habits (4:17-24). This does not involve casting out demons, but rather renewing our minds (4:23). After several practical instructions on how to obey God as His children, we are reminded that there is a spiritual battle. It is fought with certain armor that allows us to stand against—not cast out—the trickery of the demonic world (6:10). We stand with truth, righteousness, the gospel, faith, salvation, the Word of God, and prayer (6:10-18).

    unquote
    .
    .

    This is very good teaching on how the *believer* is to stand by faith.

    But it is totally irrelevant to the subject it is addressing, i.e. casting demons out of those possessed.

    This is called a strawman argument. Mormons use this same technique.

    http://ianvincent.wordpress.com/

  30. ian vincent says:

    @ Teresa

    Sorry, i missed your questions to me, my wife was reading and noticed them.

    As to whether i’ve cast demons out of people or not, it’s far better to discuss what the Word of God actually says, bcos anyone’s experience, or lack of it, does not settle any issue of Scripture.

    (And that’s the REAL issue here: does experience. or lack of it, trump the authority of God’s Word?)

    if is say that i have cast out demons, then some will accuse me of trusting in my experience.

    If is say i haven’t cast them out, then some will say i’m not an “expert” on the subject. (silly to think of some people as being “experts” in scripture : like an “expert” category of disciple)

    if the thesis is nutty to begin with then there can be no intelligent debate.

    The obvious reason why MacArthur or some of the posters here have never cast demons out of people is that, by their own testimony, they simply don’t believe it is possible to do it today. Regarding this matter, they are unbelieving God’s word.

    Have i been involved in the NAR? No.

    http://ianvincent.wordpress.com/

  31. ray says:

    Quote/Shane
    Most likely not. During my time in the pent/chars circles I never seen anyone taking those verses literally.
    …………..
    Shane ,I’ve put forward the question because based on what Mark 16:17 says , the signs that accompany those who believe are
    1. They will cast out demons
    2.They will speak in new tongues
    3.they will pick up serpents with their hands
    4. They will drink deadly poisons and not be harmed
    5.They will lay hands on the sick and they will recover

    So there’s no if’s or buts, these are the signs that accompany those that believe, you can’t pluck out 3 of those signs and claim some sort of gifting and ignore the other two. Either you take this literally and show all of these signs , or you have to exegete this in a way that is faithful to not only this passage , but all of scripture.

  32. Teresa says:

    Ian,

    It is not polite to not answer questions or not respond to others. I do not want to argue with you, However, I am simply trying to understand you. I have visited your web site to see what you beleive.
    Sometimes I can not tell if you are for the wolves, against the sheep or visa versa,
    You talk in riddles so much that I can not help but think you comment just to promote your website. Your comments leave me scratching my head.

    What do you have to say?

  33. Teresa says:

    Ian,

    Thank you for answering my question, for I do appreciate it. There is such an abuse of the gift’s of the spirit and taking scriptures out of context, within the Pentecostal and charismatic movement, especially the NAR/WOF. I have seen people told they were healed and they were not. I have seen people try to get healed only to think they had done something wrong because they were not healed. One lady from my old church had cancer…..she was declared hearled…, she is now dead.
    I personally believe that casting out demons is a dangerous matter and both sides can be hurt if not careful.

    Jesus also warns us is Matt 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Thanks Teresa

  34. ian vincent says:

    re:

    “3.they will pick up serpents with their hands
    4. They will drink deadly poisons and not be harmed”
    .
    .
    .
    .
    It’s obvious to anyone with the Holy Spirit that these two points were never intended to be interpreted as Christians putting on a demonstration of their faith to show others, by going and getting a snake, picking it up and saying, “lookie here! i didnt die!”, or someone performing a stunt by drinking a bottle of poison before an audience.

    Does anyone think that is what verses 3 and 4 exhort us to do?

    Verse 3 was fulfilled here:
    .
    .

    And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand. And when the natives saw the creature hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he has escaped the sea, yet justice allows not to live. And he shook off the creature into the fire, and felt no harm. However they looked when he should have swollen, or fallen down dead suddenly: but after they had looked a great while, and saw no harm come to him, they changed their minds, and said that he was a god.
    (Act 28:3-6)
    .
    .

    verse 4 obviously refers to attempts to poison unbelievers. i heard that during the reformation there were cases of attempted poisoning, where God fulfilled His word and they were not harmed.
    .
    .
    .
    .

    Christianity is not reduced to 2 camps: “charismatic” or “anti-charismatic” camps. It’s hard to know which of these camps has more heretics in them.
    .
    .
    .
    @ Theresa, Thanks for your reply. I was not avoiding anything, but rather trying to engage in an intelligent discussion.

    Please tell me how, whether or not i have cast out demons, has any bearing on the truth of God’s word?

    Is that a valid question?

    http://ianvincent.wordpress.com/

  35. ian vincent says:

    On the subject of casting out demons:

    In nearly every case in the Bible, it was a matter of people being possessed and manifesting before Jesus or the early church evangelists (like Philip when he went down to Samaria).

    It was not a case of Jesus or His disciples searching out who is possessed, the possessed “found them”.

    This also happens today, the possessed “find us”, and then the question is, What will we do?

    Just as an example, let’s take the case of dear brother John MacArthur. What would he do, if, while he was preaching, a possessed man ran up to the pulpit and tried to grab him by the throat and kill him? Would John have authority over those demons to command them to stop manifesting? How could he, when he believes that the authority of Jesus name over such manifestations ceased 2000 years ago?

    .
    .
    .

    I don’t for one minute hold to the NAR beliefs, nor agree with the likes of Bill Johnson when they accuse evangelicals of, “powerless Christianity”.

    The greatest manifestation of God’s power is the power of the Holy Spirit to conform us to Jesus Christ in character, and to produce the fruit of the Spirit, to deliver us from sin, the world and the devil.

    Yes, it is a powerless Christianity if you can’t deal with the scenario of the possessed man i showed above. But it’s just as powerless to be obsessed with petty and fake “signs and wonders” like gold dust and feathers, and to take your eyes of Jesus, true faith, and obeying Him,

    Both “camps” show that they have not yet appropriated this supreme power, the power of true holiness and Christian character, in knowing Jesus. Just can’t see much of Jesus in either camp.

    God has reserved for Himself MANY in the earth who are not in either camp.

    http://ianvincent.wordpress.com/

  36. shane says:

    @Ray
    The people I know were always ready to quote the speak with new tongues part and lay their hands on the sick part but the serpents and poison they would always say something to the effect of “I don’t want to tempt God”. I think deep down inside they know that they are wrong.

  37. Street Preacher says:

    In response to the dunamis question in regards to casting out demons. The power is in the Word of God and by faith in it the same. The Born Again, Converted believer in Christ, has the authority to cast out devils, because Jesus Christ said so. We dont have power in ourselves, we are weak, Jesus is Strong. This is the mistake that the neo pentecostals and charismatics make, they want power power power, but we dont have power, Jesus is the one who has the power! We just trust and obey, follow the Master in faith.
    As for me, I cannot do anything, it is Christ in me the hope of glory that does His will in me.

  38. Kiwi Dave says:

    “What’s going on today is the opposite, attributing to the Holy Spirit the work of Satan. That’s what’s going on. Attributing to the Holy Spirit the work of Satan. Satan is alive and at work in deception, false miracles, bad theology, lying visions, lying dreams, lying revelations, deceptive teachers who are in it for the money and power and influence. Satan is alive and well and the work of Satan is being attributed to the Holy Spirit, that is a serious blasphemy just as attributing to Satan the work of the Holy Spirit is a serious blasphemy.”

    I understand what John MacArthur means, but unfortunately he’s got it backwards. These false teachers certainly are all liars, and they will be punished by God if they don’t repent. However, as seen in the scriptues, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is not attributing the works of the devil to the Holy Spirit, but rather, attributing the unmistakable works of God to the devil. That is what the Pharisees did here:

    “As they went out, behold, they brought to him a dumb man possessed with a devil. And when the devil was cast out, the dumb spake: and the multitudes marvelled, saying, It was never so seen in Israel. 34But the Pharisees said, He casteth out devils through the prince of the devils.” Matthew 9:32 – 34 KJV

    “Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.” Matthew 12: 22 – 28 KJV

    “And the multitude cometh together again, so that they could not so much as eat bread. And when his friends heard of it, they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside himself. And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.” Mark 3:20 – 26 KJV

    “And he was casting out a devil, and it was dumb. And it came to pass, when the devil was gone out, the dumb spake; and the people wondered. But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils. And others, tempting him, sought of him a sign from heaven. But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth. If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub. And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out? therefore shall they be your judges. But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.” Luke 11:14 – 20 KJV

    This is where Jesus Himself gives the definition of the sin of Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, and the consequences:

    “Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.” Mark 3:28 – 30 KJV

    “Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.” Matthew 12:31 & 32 KJV

    “And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.” Luke 12:10 KJV

    Matthew Henry’s Concise Commentary:

    Mark 3:22-30 It was plain that the doctrine of Christ had a direct tendency to break the devil’s power; and it was as plain, that casting of him out of the bodies of people, confirmed that doctrine; therefore Satan could not support such a design. Christ gave an awful warning against speaking such dangerous words. It is true the gospel promises, because Christ has purchased, forgiveness for the greatest sins and sinners; but by this sin, they would oppose the gifts of the Holy Ghost after Christ’s ascension. Such is the enmity of the heart, that unconverted men pretend believers are doing Satan’s work, when sinners are brought to repentance and newness of life.

  39. ian vincent says:

    I agree with John MacArthur that there is “Charismatic Chaos”, but we also see so much “Anti-Charismatic Chaos” : twisting the scriptures, dishonestly handling the scriptures, strawmen, faulty reasoning…………. Some of this thread doesn’t qualify as an intelligent discussion.

    Just as many anti-charismatics as charismatics are demonized (under the influence of demons).

    There is a hatred that exists toward the genuine gifts of the Holy Spirit, which has a demonic source.

    …………………………………………………………………………………….

    On the subject of a “high” or “low” views of scripture, it’s not so simple, as many evangelicals are selective in which Scriptures they have a “high” view of, while ignoring those which still remain beyond their personal experience.

    http://ianvincent.wordpress.com/

  40. Teresa says:

    Ian,
    You seem to be obsessed on casting out demons, Why? That is why I thought it was a valid question for you. Do you have a deliverance ministry?

    Even if believers can cast out demons out of people, it is only by the NAME OF JESUS that one could anyway.

    I was told that I needed deliverance. She wanted me to answer some questions before she did this deliverance ceremony.. The lady sent me a questionnaire and I could not believe what was on there. Then she told me the demons would exit the same way they come in and I will not give any details.
    She told me all these rituals that she would do before during and after the deliverance/cleansing ceremony.. She went through Benny Hinn deliverance ministry…red flag. I just think this could be very dangerous, so I said no. Christ had no magic formula or rituals, he just spoke the written word of God.

    We are told to submit to the LORD, resist the devil and he will flee. and besides…What ever happened to pray and fasting.

    We are all in bondage to sin, before Christ saves redeems us and sets us free. Whom the son sets free is free in deed.,
    My deliverance comes from the LORD and the written word of God.

    Ian, it has been nice talking to you catch you later. Teresa

    • Rev's Kate & Rich M. says:

      T– Sorry you had to experience that and good thing you said no. I was offered to go along with a friend to pray and to perform some things that just didn’t sit right; it is discernment, which the Holy Spirit gives freely to believers, that puts on the brakes.

      I wouldn’t touch a deliverance ministry if I was paid a million dollars–frankly, I get the creeps; I don’t trust it and it stinks of mysticism and a host of other junk that pawns itself off as God’s word. It can be very dangerous and can open the door to more problems, spiritual, emotional, etc., not anticipated.

      However, I will listen, watch and pray and be as helpful as the Lord leads–but other than that, I am very wary. Take care, K

  41. Ian said:

    “Some of this thread doesn’t qualify as an intelligent discussion.”

    Ad hominem attacks aren’t allowed here, Ian. I’ve allowed this discussion to go on because I think it is indeed an intelligent and fruitful conversation. You just crossed one of the very few lines I have here at SotS. One more time and I’ll block you.

  42. Teresa says:

    Ian,

    This is chrystal blog but is she aware that you are doing this. Taking her blog stuff to your blog. Let everyone read the comment section because you are accusing someone of being dishonest maybe you are directing that toward me because I asked you if you have casted out demons.
    Ian,

    I am a believer trying to make sense of this and seeking for truth of God’s Word just like everyone else. I have never said that I do not believe in casting out demons or the gifts of the spirit.
    I will say that there is a serious problem with abuse of these gifts, so serious that even Jesus himself warns us over and over to beware, take heed, mark them and so forth.

    Ian, I do not understand why when it comes to John MacArthur you alway are not kind with you comments concerning him…He seems to step on your toes, so to speak.

    You ask these question about him, would he know what to do if a possessed person would show up at his service.
    Why can we not ask you the same question to you. Have you dealt with demons before, have you casted out demons before, I believe it is valid question..

    If you have not casted out demons….then how do you know it is for today.

    You have still to answer these few questions
    (1) Do you believe that believer’s can be demon possessed.
    (2) Are you in fact promoting your website which is against the rules?
    (3) Why do you always link your website?

    If I am steppin over a line Chrystal please tell me and I will back off.

    I may not be the most intelligent person on this tread but I am no dumbie either. TERESA

    Strawmen don’t like matches
    November 2, 2011 by ian vincent
    Put a match to a strawman here:

    http://slaughteringthesheep.wordpress.com/2011/10/27/the-modern-blasphemy-of-the-holy-spirit/

    Some Christians have the utter audacity to say that believers can’t cast demons out of people today. Such a person has been seduced, tempted and deceived by the enemy, to base their faith upon their own experiences and not the Word of God.

    Posted in Uncategorized | 3 Comments »

  43. Teresa says:

    COMMENTS TAKEN FROM IAN’S WEBSITE —-

    Ian comment section from his web site

    3 Responses to “Strawmen don’t like matches”
    ian vincent Says:

    November 3, 2011 at 1:18 am
    Please tell me how, whether or not i have cast out demons, has any bearing on the truth of God’s word?

    Is that a valid question?

    ……………………………………………………………………….

    On the subject of casting out demons:

    In nearly every case in the Bible, it was a matter of people being possessed and manifesting before Jesus or the early church evangelists (like Philip when he went down to Samaria).

    It was not a case of Jesus or His disciples searching out who is possessed, rather, the possessed “found them”.

    This also happens today, the possessed “find us”, and then the question is, What will we do?

    Just as an example, let’s take the case of dear brother John MacArthur. What would he do, if, while he was preaching, a possessed man ran up to the pulpit and tried to grab him by the throat and kill him? Would John have authority over those demons to command them to stop manifesting? How could he, when he believes that the authority of Jesus name over such manifestations ceased 2000 years ago?

    .
    .
    .

    I don’t for one minute hold to the NAR beliefs, nor agree with the likes of Bill Johnson when they accuse evangelicals of “powerless Christianity”.

    The greatest manifestation of God’s power is the power of the Holy Spirit to conform us to Jesus Christ in character, and to produce the fruit of the Spirit, to deliver us from sin, the world and the devil.

    Yes, it is a powerless Christianity if you can’t deal with the scenario of the possessed man i showed above. But it’s just as powerless to be obsessed with petty and fake “signs and wonders” like gold dust and feathers, and to take your eyes of Jesus, true faith, and obeying Him,

    Both “camps” show that they have not yet appropriated this supreme power, the power of true holiness and Christian character, in knowing Jesus. Just can’t see much of Jesus in either camp.

    God has reserved for Himself MANY in the earth who are not in either camp.

    ian vincent Says:

    November 3, 2011 at 1:20 am
    The greatest manifestation of God’s power is the power of the Holy Spirit to conform us to Jesus Christ in character,

    Take this matter of Christians employing “strawman arguments”.

    This shows a lack of Christian character. It is dishonest.

    ian vincent Says:

    November 4, 2011 at 1:36 am
    I agree with John MacArthur that there is “Charismatic Chaos”, but we also see so much “Anti-Charismatic Chaos” : twisting the scriptures, dishonestly handling the scriptures, strawmen, faulty reasoning…………. Some of this thread doesn’t qualify as an intelligent discussion.

    Just as many anti-charismatics as charismatics are demonized (under the influence of demons).

    There is a hatred that exists toward the genuine gifts of the Holy Spirit, which has a demonic source.

    …………………………………………………………………………………….

    On the subject of a “high” or “low” views of scripture, it’s not so simple, as many evangelicals are selective in which Scriptures they have a “high” view of, while ignoring those which still remain beyond their personal experience.

    From here:

    http://slaughteringthesheep.wordpress.com/2011/10/27/the-modern-blasphemy-of-the-holy-spirit/#comment-13180

    Leave a Reply Cancel reply

  44. ray says:

    @ Theresa

    I just read through your post @9.02 ;This is a sad situation that is not uncommon in christianity today.If I might offer a little biblical perspective on this it would be to say that no one who has genuinely believed in Jesus for their salvation and repented and has received the gift of the Holy Spirit , will ever , and i repeat , will ever be posessed by a demon.The answers are all there in the bible.
    In Acts 2 :38 where Peter preaches at Pentecost , he says to them;

    Repent and be baptized every one of you , in the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

    Would Peter be preaching a different gospel to the one that Jesus instructed his disciples to preach when he gave them the great commission in Matthew 28:18?

    And Jesus came and said to them ,” all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go there fore and make disciples of all nations , baptizing them in the name of the Father , and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

    No , Peter declared the same gospel that he was instructed to do , and it is on that basis that we can have full confidence in knowing that when we read in Ephesians 1:13

    In Him you also , when you heard the word of truth , the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him WERE SEALED WITH THE PROMISED HOLY SPIRIT.

    I cannot over emphasise that our conversion must be that which is biblical , repent , believe and receive the Holy Spirit.
    The sealing by the Holy Spirit is a mark on us that we belong to Christ. We cannot be possessed by another “spirit”.
    If I might also add that this talk of casting out demons is silly, the power to cast out demons is the power of the Gospel of Christ. It has nothing whatsoever to do with ” our” faith, or power , or lack thereoff. When a sinner repents , believes , and receives the Holy Spirit, it is the Holy Spirit upon entering that person that casts out the demon. And so it is that we cast out demons today, when we preach the saving gospel of Christ.

  45. fleebabylon says:

    Teresa said:

    “I will say that there is a serious problem with abuse of these gifts, so serious that even Jesus himself warns us over and over to beware, take heed, mark them and so forth.”

    There clearly are sophmoric debate tacticts used by a poster or two here to poison the well, muddy the waters, and crush the straw man army. It goes like this: “since you believe the same gifts God chose for the Church still opertate as in the NT then you must be out of Gods will and be a Benny Hinn follower or something”.

    There is also a serious abuse of the word of God in the reformed camp… just as bad (or almost) as charasmatic chaos. I think that is Ians point. No gifts of the Spirit operating in most reformed churches besides the roman catholic gift of the sola pastora… out with the five fold ministry and in with a protestant pope. That is nothing to be proud of, regardless of how many otherwise Godly men accept this tradition over the plain teaching of the word of God.

    Jesus surely warns of the false signs and wonders (though HE is also the one that gave the true to the early Church), but He also hates the practice of the nicolatians that lord over Gods people in place of the Holy Spirit.

    In Christ -Jim

  46. fleebabylon says:

    PS – I was not saying you are one of the posters using those tacticts Teresa, sorry if it sounded as an attack on you. -Jim

  47. ian vincent says:

    Let’s try and keep it to Scripture.

    Those who believe that it is not lawful to cast out demons today, please simply quote the Scriptures you believe say that.

    But please do not elevate your opinion or lack of experience ABOVE the Authority of Scripture.

    Thanks

    …………………………………………………………………………………………….

    @ Teresa

    If you have personal concerns about me then please feel free to call me in India, 8974027213 (pls note the time difference)

    Fellowship is a 2-way street: You have still not answered my question as to how, whether or not i have cast out demons, establishes what the Scriptures say.

    Are you saying, that if i have cast out demons, then that proves the Scriptures say we can cast out demons, and if i have not, then that proves the Scriptures say we can’t?

    And, what is wrong with me linking a thread from my blog to this and vice versa. Pls show me why this is unethical.

    @ Chrystal

    The reason i brought up the word “intelligent discussion” is that i haven’t seen any valid Biblical response yet to anything i’ve questioned or challenged. Have you seen any defense yet that it wasn’t a strawman argument which was presented on this thread?

    http://ianvincent.wordpress.com/

    • Ian,

      I have always encouraged discussion because I think it can pay out healthy dividends. All I ask is that it’s kept civil. That’s all I ask.

      Let the discussion resume.

  48. ian vincent says:

    BTW, i agree with Jim.

  49. Teresa says:

    Ian,
    quote
    If you have personal concerns about me then please feel free to call me in India, 8974027213 (pls note the time difference)
    end of quote.

    Ian, Have you given John MacArthur the same curisity. Have you taken the time to contact John M. You appear to have a personal concern or problem with him.

    I do not know nothing about no straw man. If I created a straw man argument for you Ian, then forgive me.. I do stand on the point that you do have a problem with John MacArthur and I thank the LORD for him.
    We are all seeking for the truth and not one of us are expert on the Word of God. You interpet the scriptures one way and John another……he would say you are wrong and you would say he is wrong. I am saying it is dangerous and somone could be hurt.
    He did speak a lot of biblical truth in the sermon and this is all you got out of the sermon that he does not beleive in casting out demons are for today.

    I will not be resuming this conversation. This will be my last post on this topic. I have said my peace. I guess I have not wrong, so I will stop. T

  50. Rev's Kate & Rich M. says:

    Hey guys– I was watching a program tonight on questionable demonic possession. Go figure, it is Halloween week!

    I’ve been around awhile, been a practicing Christian a long time; I’m an author, been in ministry–the whole shebang.

    I still have no idea when someone is possessed or may possibly be in need of medical care, which I tend to drift towards–so, how does one know? My husband and I still don’t know and probably never will, but, bet your bottom dollar, we will still be praying and applying, if necessary, ie: Jude 1:9, and seeking God on this issue.

    If this is off the mark, would someone educate me please. Thanks, K

  51. ray says:

    Ian
    How about a little bit of consistency .

    You come out with this on one post
    Quote
    verse 4 obviously refers to attempts to poison unbelievers. i heard that during the reformation there were cases of attempted poisoning, where God fulfilled His word and they were not harmed.

    And then you come out with this on another
    quote
    Those who believe that it is not lawful to cast out demons today, please simply quote the Scriptures you believe say that.
    But please do not elevate your opinion or lack of experience ABOVE the Authority of Scripture.

    Clearly a case of your subjective opinion above the authority of scripture, if you want an intelligent debate , then show a bit of initiative.

  52. Teresa says:

    I meant to say that ” I guess I have done wrong” so I will stop sorry for typing mistakes..

  53. Kiwi Dave says:

    This is what happens if anyone attempts to cast out demons without the Holy Spirit, or being in the perfect will of God, including 99.9% of all those who claim to have some kind of “deliverence ministry”:

    “Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth. And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so. And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye? And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.” Acts 19:13 – 16 KJV

    This is what the Apostle Paul wrote regarding the Gifst of the Holy Spirit:

    “Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.” I Corinthians 12:4 – 11 KJV

    One can plainly see from the Scriptures that there is on “gift” in relation to “casting out demons”. This passage of scripture is one you should all be famiiar with:

    “And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ” Ephesians 4:11 & 12 KJV

    You see there there is no such ministry or biblical office in the New Testament church as the “deliverence ministry” as claimed by the NAR/WOF/IHOP movements. If a person is demon possessed and needs to be delivered, the Gift of discerning of spirits will operate, in that The Holy Spirit will empower the right believer, or shall I say, the right child of God fit for the job, to cast out that spirit. That may not be the Pastor either. If he has just one doubt he will have no authority over any demon. That’s what the Apostles found out:

    “And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a certain man, kneeling down to him, and saying, Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water. And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him. Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me. And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour. Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out? And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.” Matthew 17:14 – 21 KJV

    “And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.” Mark 16:17 – 20 KJV

    Those scriptures have all been twisted and corrupted by the WOF/Charismatic movements to no end. There are “serpent Pentecostals”, Benny Hinn and all his phoney “Healing Crusades” and so on. There is no such thing according to the Word of God as a “deliverence ministry”. This, however is the correct focus that a Christan must have in his walk with God and his life, clearly missing from the modern Charismatic and Pentecostal movements:

    “He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me. And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.”
    Luke 10:16 – 20 KJV

  54. Teresa says:

    Ian,

    Do you believe that true believer’s can be demon possessed? yes or no question. I can not find that in the bible.
    Are you talking about casting demons out of non believer or a true believer.

    Please answer the question not meant to be a straw man as you put it.

    One more thing in your comment sections on you website whom was you refering to when you said this.

    ian vincent Says:

    November 3, 2011 at 1:20 am
    The greatest manifestation of God’s power is the power of the Holy Spirit to conform us to Jesus Christ in character,

    Take this matter of Christians employing “strawman arguments”.

    This shows a lack of Christian character. It is dishonest.

    “Was this directed at me, just would like to know”

  55. Teresa says:

    Ray,

    I said i was done posting on this topic but I to am trying to make biblical sense of this topic.

    I wanted to thank you for your biblical perspective, it very helpful.
    I know that believers can not be possessed by demons,,,for I have not found in the scriptures.

    I was never trying to base my own experience or opinion over the Word of God just trying to understand. Thanks again Ray!!!!!!!!!!!

  56. ian vincent says:

    @ Teresa

    If JM would give me his number i would gladly talk with him.

    Your accusation that i have a vendetta against JM is totally false. I refered to him bcos the subject was about him.

    @ Ray

    No, i haven’t been inconsistent, but rather you have refused to discuss what the Scriptures actually say:

    And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out demons; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
    (Mark 16:17-18)

    Re: “….if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them…”

    a) I believe this.

    b) I cited examples of it happening in church history (not my own experience)

    Ray, do you believe that if someone tried to poison you (cos you fearlessly preach the Gospel) that the poison would have no effect on you, cos you believe the promise of God?

    I do.

    Or, do you believe that Jesus did not promise this, or, do you believe that His promise has passed its “use by” expiry date?

    http://ianvincent.wordpress.com/

  57. ian vincent says:

    PS

    Jesus said:

    Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

    (Mat 24:35)
    .
    .
    .

    Cessasionists say, “Not so, Lord! Some of your words have passed away.”

  58. Carolyn says:

    Interesting discussion…good thoughts Kiwi Dave. Here are a few of mine:

    Consider the cults and certain denominations…what makes them special? Well, they take a few chosen scriptures and spend most of their time defending them and debating them. That goes for anyone who chooses a line of thinking and wants to dogmatically condemn anyone else who does not see it their way. And I hasten to add that I am not pointing fingers at anyone who has posted…just making general comments for consideration.

    As for casting out demons…I think obedience is the key. Not formulas or dogmas. The Holy Spirit does not do things only one way. Sometimes he says to Paul…I gave you this thorn in the flesh for a reason. Several cases of sickness among the believers went untreated, others were healed. Not every demon was cast out. The NT is full of “contradictions” as some people see them because they cannot harness the Holy Spirit for their own agenda. He is a person with a plan. It is his way, not ours…we operate under his direction and authority or not at all. This makes him imperceptible and confusing to those who prefer to his operate in the flesh by dogmatism or elitism but for those who are humble and submitted to Spirit and his Word and to his cross, we can begin to comprehend his awesome power in us who believe.

    Ephesians 4
    13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

    14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. 15 Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ.

  59. ray says:

    Its always going to be difficult to come to an understanding of these things unless we first study and appreciate the purpose for which all the signs and gifts were given . They were most definitely not given for the reason of being an end to themselves , and yet this would appear to be prevailing position from which this topic is debated from. In the case of the signs that were performed by the apostles , i believe that scripture is clear that

    1 The source and power of these signs was from God

    2 These signs followed the preaching of the gospel

    3 They were to confirm the apostolic authority that the Apostles held, and the the word that was preached.

    Consider the following
    Mark 16:20
    And they went forth , and preached everywhere , the Lord working with them , and confirming the word with signs following.

    Hebrews 2;3
    How shall we escape, if we neglect so great a salvation , which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him .
    God also bearing them with witness , both with signs and wonders , and divers miracles and gifts of the Holy Ghost , according to his own will?.

    I believe that what needs to held in perspective is that the times of the first church we will never see again . The apostles lived and wrote the new testament that we now have as the word of God. Of course there were miraculous occurences , the scripture tells us that this was for confirmamtion of the gospel. The office of Apostle as in those who saw , lived with and were commanded by Jesus to establish the church has gone [ except if your in the NAR] , and in its place we have Gods inspired Word , which is now our authority , which now with the witness of the Holy Spirit , bears witness to the gospel of Christ.
    So in case any one is still wondering , I believe that the miraculous signs that followed the Apostles , which btw were for a witness to unbelievers, have like the Apostles , gone. The signs that accompany those that believe [ Mark 16:17] have not gone and are evidence of those that follow Christ.
    Again , i would say , signs are not the end, and this is most definitely the situation that a lot of folks find themselves in , they desire the power , the prestige and the glory , and are unable to comprehend that the signs merely point to Christ .

    Preach the gospel , and you will see demons cast out.
    Preach the gospel , and you will speak with new tongues
    Preach the gospel , and then you will be able to take up serpents
    Preach the gospel , and you will withstand deadly poisons.
    Preach the gospel , and then you will heal the sick.

    Don’t preach the gospel and you’re on your own!

  60. Just a sincere question. When is someone (Christian or non-christian) demon possessed? Is it when he/she has creepy eyes or extraordinary strength while it is not appliable on his/her bodymass. (Like scenes in the Exorcist movie) Is it when he/she is doing ‘holy’ at church while outside the church he/she is cursing, swearing, being a fruit of the flesh. When someone is having an adulterous relationship, is watching porn, is a fraud, is still abusive, is still smoking and/or drinking, is such a person demon possessed or demon influenced. And when someone is demon-possessed, is he/she still able to make some own decisions or is he/she totally and fully influenced with no own will whatsoever. Hopefully someone can help me out because concerning that, the charismatic world have had so many views and opinions. I can imagine that it can freak people out with as a result, some great pain and hurt with people. Sometimes they even turn their backs on Jesus because of this.

  61. Teresa says:

    Ian,

    You said: Your accusation that i have a vendetta against JM is totally false. I referred to him bcos the subject was about him.

    Actually, the subject or this topic is about him calling out by name the NAR and their deception, not John himself.
    Also, please do not twist my words Ian, I have never used the words “vendetta against” I said you seem to have a problem with JM, it show in your comments. Not everyone on this blog believe’s the way you do, the way John M or the way I do. I believe the word of God and I am still learning like everyone else.
    It was not just me who thought this because Ruitjie on a another biog run of Chrystal pretty much said the same thing to you as I have.
    Here are her comments…

    November 4, 2011 at 2:58 am
    @ian, you should listen to the sermons from MacArthur. Than you will see that he bases his believes on the Bible. When I read your comments about MacArthur I have got the feeling you have a problem with him. May be you should ask him your question to get an answer. Or go to his website (www.gty.org) and look at the sermons about 1 Cor. 14 and other parts of the new testament. Than you know what he thinks about that.

    Reply
    Ruitje says:
    November 4, 2011 at 3:04 am
    @ian, you were also commenting on another topic about casting out demons. Go to http://www.gty.org, surch in recourses (sermons, scripture) and look how MacArthur explains the text than you know what he thinks. I got the idea that you are focusing to much on the spiritual gifts instead of Christ.

    Reply

    Ian,
    I do not have a personal problem with you, but I just got the impression that you have a problem with JM and that you are promoting your website because you always leave your link, my bad.

    When I am wrong I will say I am wrong, I came on to strong, so I will ask your forgiveness that I have offended you, was never my intention. God’s speed T

  62. Bud Press says:

    ian vincent:

    Have you raised the dead from a cemetery grave through the power of God? If not, does that mean you are a closet cessasionist? Just wondering…

    Bud Press

    • Bud, that is not a biblical argument. Let the scriptures speak and not silly arguments.
      Neiher Jesus nor the apostles went to the cemetries and raised all the dead therein. Bud you have a deep reverence and respect for the Bible I know. Lets stick to the Word heh?

  63. uote says:

    Quote Ian

    Ray, do you believe that if someone tried to poison you (cos you fearlessly preach the Gospel) that the poison would have no effect on you, cos you believe the promise of God?

    I do.

    Or, do you believe that Jesus did not promise this, or, do you believe that His promise has passed its “use by” expiry date?

    …………………
    Ian , I agree, I agree that as believers we can drink deadly poison with no ill effects.

    BUT, lets allow the scriptures, and not Ian Vincent , to define what deadly poisons we drink.

    James 3:8
    But the tongue can no man tame, , it is an unruly evil , full of deadly poison.

    Psalm 140:1
    Deliver me , O Lord, from the evil man ;preserve me from the violent man . Which imagine mischiefs in their heart; continually they are gathered together for war.
    They have sharpened their tongues like a serpent , adders poison is under their lips.

    Romans 3:13
    Their throat is an open sepulchre, with their tongues they have used deceit ; the poison of adders is under their lips.

    So which is it to be , the biblical definition or the one of your imagination.

    …………
    Deadly poisons,
    That which emanates from the mouths, lips and tongues as lies and deceit from evil and violent men.

    Maybe not the most eloquent biblical definition , but I think one that the bible portrays.

  64. Ruitje says:

    @eateenzooitje, I think much of the problems have nothing to do with demons, but with the heart of men. 1 John 2:16 speaks about the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the pride of evil. Satan will do everything to tempt people to do what is in their hearts. You have a choice to follow your heart or to obey God.

  65. Ray says:

    Ian Quote.
    Both “camps” show that they have not yet appropriated this supreme power, the power of true holiness and Christian character, in knowing Jesus. Just can’t see much of Jesus in either camp.
    ………………………………….
    Where does scripture instruct us to ” appropiate” this ” supreme power”? , the power of holiness and christian chararcter. This just smacks of spiritual eliteism. If the power of the Holy Spirit ever became dependent on my character or holiness , I would surely die without that power.

    What saith the scriptures.
    Acts 1:8
    But you shall receive power , after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you : and you shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem and all Judea, and in Samaria and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

    Luke 24:46
    And said unto them , Thus it is written , and thus it behoved Christ to suffer , and to rise the third day;
    And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name , among all nations , begining at Jerusalem .
    AND YE ARE WITNESSES OF THESE THINGS.

    The power of the Holy Spirit is for the witness of the gospel, it is the power that all believers have , and not those who consider themselves “holy” enough , to be a witness for Christ.
    Surely those that believe we have to somehow merit the power of the Holy Spirit are reading into the scriptures and not from them , the bible explains in no uncertain terms that the Holy Spirit is a gift , and a necessary one at that . It is the Spirit that works within us in order to sanctify us .
    We see a glimpse of the promise of the Spirit in Ezekiel 38:27;

    And I will put my Spirit within you and cause you to walk in my statutes , and you shall keep my judgements, and do them.

    Sorry to say that there is no mention here of anyone ” appropiating supreme power” , but rather , God in his grace giving his people the gift of the Spirit , for what purpose, ……… in order that God may be glorified. There is a marked difference between those who place undue emphasis on the miraculous as being a witness to Christ , and those who recognise that true Holy Spirit power is that for the purpose of living a life for Christ, and thereby being a witness for the gospel of Christ.

  66. Craig says:

    Ian Vincent,

    Let me begin this comment by stating that I’m not a cessationist and I disagree with MacArthur in his eschatology specifically the pre-trib Rapture doctrine and especially how he states that the Rapture occurs “in the white spaces between chapters 3 and 4” in the Book of Revelation. However, I have learned a LOT from MacArthur over the years and I respect the fact that he’s one of the few who is willing to speak out on error and outright heresy within the Church.

    Having prefaced my comment, I will now proceed. I submit that you are the one who started off with a straw man in your initial comment. Given that MacArthur’s version of cessationism, as a “classical cessationist,” entails that the ‘sign gifts’ ceased either at the close of the canon or with the last Apostle, your premise is based on the false assumption (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informal_fallacy"informal fallacy) that demonic deliverance is a spiritual gift and/or it’s part of MacArthur’s belief system perhaps related to cessationism, i.e. that demonic deliverance has ceased. Perhaps you can show all the readers here something by MacArthur/GTY which indicates a belief that the Church currently lacks the power to effect exorcisms. If you succeed in doing so, I’ll stand corrected.

    While you (and I) may disagree with MacArthur with respect to cessationism, I believe you would agree that all of the essential tenets of the Christian faith are affirmed by him. On the other hand, those whom MacArthur speaks against in this sermon, as members/supporters of the NAR, adhere to a number of extra- and anti-Biblical doctrines including Dominionism and manifested Sons of God — the latter, in essence, denying Christ’s incarnational deity while affirming man’s (the elite, that is). It seems to me that you are putting cessationism in the same league which is not fair.

    John MacArthur made an excellent point in this sermon. Would you be willing to concede that?

  67. Craig says:

    wateenzooitje,

    This is my opinion but it is based on having read a bit of occult literature. My belief is that demonic possession can be hidden as well as obvious to the outsider. New Agers speak of increasing their Christ Consciousness through prolonged meditation – essentially Transcendental Meditation (TM). In Brahmanism (Hinduism), the goal of chanting “om” is to bring one in union with the divine. This is the same thing in Yoga (Buddhism, Hinduism); in fact, the term yoga literally means to yoke/unite with the divine. Given that the ‘divine’ in either case is not God, the only conclusion that can be reached is that this is union with demonic entities. We must understand that most of these individuals truly believe they are ‘becoming one’ with God or gods rather than with evil spirits.

    Satan works by deception. If outsiders can readily conclude that an individual is demon-possessed then, of course, the outsiders will not want to partake in any of the rituals the demon-possessed does. So, IMO, Satan does both in order to confuse. You may see the obvious, reject it and yet embrace the not so obvious.

    This is why it is SO important to adhere to the Truth of Scripture. If we begin with the basics: worshiping the right Jesus as delineated in Scripture which leads to worship of the correct Trinitarian God, and staying away from things forbidden in Scripture, then we should be safe. We should be led of the Holy Spirit and not by our flesh.

    We must keep in mind that this Christian walk is not just a walk in the part; it is constant warfare. We stand fast by putting on the full armor of God [Ephesians 6:10-18]. If you get a ‘check in your spirit’ regarding something you witness, it’s best to take heed.

    If a given “Christian” teacher stresses ‘soaking in His presence’ or ‘practicing His presence’ be wary. Especially if said teacher places experience over doctrinal truth. This may well be just like the Eastern religions’ Transcendental Meditation. We worship God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength.

  68. shane says:

    “If the power of the Holy Spirit ever became dependent on my character or holiness , I would surely die without that power.” Amen

    All this talk of “power” reminds me that when I was still in the pent/chars movement we would sing the hymn Power in the blood. When we came to the part where it says “there is power, power” we would always add in a couple of extra “power’s” to make it “power, power, power, power”. Gotta have more power.

    Is the power of the Gospel not enough to change peoples lives?

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