Unholy Manifestations at IHOP

I recently did a post where I linked you to an article written by a former IHOP intern who shows how IHOP is a cult.  Below, in this video, you will see one of IHOP’s interns testify about how she came to IHOP, and while speaking, she is having unholy and ungodly manifestations.

Notice how this young lady isn’t quoting Scripture; she’s talking about all the things “god” spoke to her.  What is all this manifesting worth if you do not know the gospel or the Scriptures?  It is effective at keeping people blind.  Those who are addicted to this could never make it in a church that stands on the authority of Scripture and practices expository preaching.  They won’t last long because they can’t make it without physical zings and fleshly prickles.  Isn’t it sad that this young lady believes that the manifestations people are having is evidence that the Lord is moving?  Truly sad.

(HT:  Jackie Macon)

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95 Responses to Unholy Manifestations at IHOP

  1. kevinkleint says:

    Something God’s been showing me. Back when Jesus walked the earth their were unclean spirits and they all had certain similarities:

    1 – They were in the synagogue (church).
    2 – They all recognized Jesus as the Son of God.
    3 – They convulsed people.

    Could I be on to something here? Just wondering.

    Kevin

  2. james says:

    I have wondered that too Kevin.

    Being part of the Toronto church for 3.5 years from 2006 to 2010, I saw many things like this. In fact, this is “tame” compared to some manifestations I saw from people testify at the front. The kind of manifestations in this video were so common it became nothing out of the ordinary.

    I’ve left all of that behind, and I’m not seeking it anymore. I want to be loved by Christ and spend my time seeking after Him, and letting Him live through me. My desire isn’t power or stuff… though admittedly that is still tempting to anyone when push comes to shove, but I ask for His strength to sustain me through such times.

  3. ian vincent says:

    Some points:

    a) Katie’s message is essentially correct concerning what Jesus is saying to believers.

    b) Katie is enjoying all the attention the manifesting brings her. (Which raises the issue of whether or not this type of thing is really a subconscious “Cry for help” or a “Cry for love” ? )

    c) Katie CAN control the manifestations (like when she goes out of the meeting and goes into public places, to shops, or the bank etc..) This is the point where a demon deceives her, telling her she can’t control it, and that appeals to her flesh, her pride, thinking that she is so special that God totally controls her, even against her will (above other lesser Christians). This deception leads to eltism, and hence unteachability. I mean, how can you reason with someone who really believes that God totally controls them and forces them to jerk and twitch? They are infallible and unteachable. And they will elevate this above the Scriptures.

    d) Katie probably won’t continue manifesting all her life. If she is truly saved, she will get bored with it real fast. She will realize she was just seeking attention.

    e) We should take some time to pray for Katie.

    f) “Self-hatred” is mentioned. Ephesians 5:29 “For no man EVER yet hated his own flesh; but nourishes and cherishes it, even as the Lord the church:” There you go. No man ever hated himself. What they refer to as “self-hatred” is REALLY just loving one self, and attention seeking.

    http://ianvincent.wordpress.com/

  4. Javanut says:

    @kevin – amazing coincidence is it not? Jesus commanded the spirits to “shut up and come out” – wonder if that would work in today’s charismaniac services?

  5. BrotherK says:

    Aw, COME ON! This is dreadful…viewing some of the other videos in the thread on YouTube reveals that these ‘testimonies’ are coming primarily from young people who are laden with real psychological issues, some of which require professional counseling NOT the IHOP dog & pony treatment. Seriously, these kids need genuine help, not IHOP’s exploitation. Shame on them.

  6. Carolyn says:

    Matthew 24:24
    For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

    Healings, false prophesies, great signs, wonders….are no proof that God is working or speaking. Ever since Pharoah’s magicians were able to perform the same signs and wonders that Moses performed, we have seen that Satan can duplicate miracles.
    In my younger years, I followed Kathryn Khulman, Benny Hinn and a multitude of “faith healers” thinking this was God at work…only to find them exposed as false teachers and greed mongers. So now, for me, it is correct doctrine which is of first and final importance…and miracles second.

    I am appalled by this video. The jerking and writhing reminds me of that which is practiced in advanced yoga sessions. Most can continue on without total possession and insanity afterwards. Others end up in insane wards. I would not want to be playing with these demonic spirits. This is certainly not the Spirit of God…quite the opposite. What is the point? Just ridiculous, embarrassing manifestations. Christ was about decency and order. He restored the demoniacs to their right minds. He taught knowledge of the Scriptures. He did not promote silliness where people stole the show by doing dangerous or odd and unusual things. And when they did, he silenced the demons!

    Hard to believe this senseless, distorted absurdity goes on(especially in the name of Christianity), hard to believe people are so surrendered to deceiving spirits, hard to believe that people choose to live in this subjective realm of self delusion, hard to believe people would or could believe this is God….Hosea 4:6..my people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. True. If they knew the Scriptures, they would not be duped, deluded, deceived and destroyed. Run from this…don’t walk…run!

    @Kevin…I agree with you.

  7. anastasis says:

    I would describe the “manifestations” as nothing more than the product of an altered state of consciousness brought on by prolonged repetitive music. There’s nothing spiritual or supernatural about them. But to claim that they are from God is wrong and very dangerous.

  8. annunk says:

    Years ago, at a Word of Faith church, I used to have very similar attitudes about “how God really moved”. I remember feeling almost sorry for my parents who had “only” read their Bibles and gone to church for my entire life… I remember thinking, “They’re trying so hard, but they’ve just totally missed God altogether. They never even see God move!” (I know, I know… I thought SO much of myself…)

    It wasn’t until after I got out of Word of Faith and got 100% away from it that I was able to see the deception. My gosh. There was so much fleshly deception – If you can’t SEE it, or FEEL it, then God wasn’t ‘IN’ it. What a laugh and what a mockery of the Word of God.

    Then comes IHOP (and ministries besides just IHOP) who take experiential ‘worship’ and give it precedence over the Word of God. Forget old-fashioned faith… those are for people who are “just practicing ‘religiosity'”. What a joke.

    The only ones being “religious” are the ones who are looking down their noses at everyone else and that would definitely be the IHOP attendees…

    I’m so glad I’m out of that. I pray earnestly for IHOP people that the Lord would open their eyes to the SAME deception that they’re swallowing. After all, you can call it a million and one different names, but it’s still deception thru and thru and we all know who the lord of the deception is…

  9. Ruitje says:

    These are the same manifestations you see at meetings with Todd Bentley. It is the same ‘spirit’ (kundalini).

  10. Joseph says:

    It is very sad today what the Lord has been reduced to. I have seen all manner of manifestations attributed to the Holy Spirit and yet, I see no instances of Jesus behaving these ways in scripture. Just the demonic as Kevin has pointed out

  11. Grant says:

    I made it thru 39 seconds of the video and felt like it was an improv staging of people who needed attention in front of a crowd and they mimicked what they’ve seen others experience and trys to make them look spiritual

  12. Paul Gesh says:

    Poor girls! I pray that the Holy Spirit will help open their eyes to the truth soon.

  13. Ed Lamaster says:

    How I wish I had seen things like this before becoming involved with The Rock of Roseville (affiliated with IHOP). It would have saved my family a lot of grief and the near loss of faith my son experienced after we rescued him out of their internship program.

    Hopefully others will see this and understand before the damage is done in their families. Thank you Chrystal for sharing this!

  14. Craig Dawson says:

    Yes it all sounds very nice and wonderful and fun but then you look at the teachings… if it’s not true, Biblical doctrine that’s being taught then what spirit is “manifesting”? Holy Spirit confirms the Word of truth… what spirit confirms lies? SCARY.

    @kevinkleint – Yes I think you are indeed onto something.

  15. Bob Scruggs says:

    This is pure nonsense is this part of the 1800s shakers movement or just “Pentecostal Looney Tunes” As I stated many times when I was in the prison ministryI seen hundreds receive “Jesus Salvation Message” never did anyone ever fall backwards, roll on the floor, act insane,make animal noise,yell in tongues, talk stupid,shake, or jerk around as you see here as well as the TV preachers and the Pentecostals, its only EMOTIONS!, with demon activity.

  16. Cheryl says:

    This is ABSOLUTELY a DEMONIC manifestation….i know ….I have seen it before in 2008 when I ignorantly attended unrepentant Proven Heretic and False prophet Todd Bentley’s supposed “Lakeland Revival” here in florida……the LORD taught me a lesson and I saw many women with this uncontrollable demonic manifestation…..They really believe its the HOLY SPIRIT thats on them …One of the fruits of the HOLY SPIRIT is SELF-CONTROL!!!!!!!!………they are under major deception of satan!!!
    check out Kundalini warning on Youtube to see more of this….
    thank you LORD that you are coming soon to rescue me out of this mess!!
    I love you JESUS!!

  17. Mike A says:

    Good observation Kevin.

    I had to turn it off half-way through – it was literally making me sick to my stomach watching her twitch etc.

  18. Eli says:

    They’re similar Kevin because its the same demonic spirits.

    This one is down right cheesy and rediculous.

  19. Barry Boyd says:

    Kevin,what breaks my heart is that it is all over the place,once upon a time my wife and I were involved in the same kinda deception and if I could go back and undo it I would.We had no discernment and didn’t line up with the word of God what we were seeing and quickly becoming a part of.These people are no different,they are not exercising discernment and searching the scriptures to see if these things be of God.They like we once did are trusting their leaders and beleiving what they are told and what ever u do don’t ask questions and don’t question leadership.We did and in a few months we were gone,God took us out but little did we know the damage had already been done and I am still suffering from the effects.It pains my heart to see it cuz we were there,we were them.

  20. JimmyKrackKorn says:

    I couldn’t watch all of it. The bobbing and weaving. I watched a special on Todd Bently at his new home in North Carolina at Morningstar…and all the youth there did the same aggitated and jerky motions. The same weaving and half-laughs and facial contortions. At that moment I realized if nothing else and I’m not ruling out demons…but at the very least it is a trained behavior. Simply. They come in new and the watch the older cool hip youth leaders and they emulate them. Not everyone would feel the need to sway and buckle thier knees, and stumble with a glazed over look on thier face…..Why would they all recieve the same portion of this so called manifestation? Wouldn’t some get it more than others? Maybe some wouldn’t need to act like the others…but they ALL do it. I believe most are faking it to fit in. Seem holy. Same cult-like placid smile. It is a bad situation. I’m not familiar enough with hard facts on IHOP to call them a cult…but they may be. IDK. But I will say they is a lack of true biblical understanding. Because the true God of the Bible is not a chaotic God that displays His presence by making His followers look like they are physically and mentally challenged….like they are sick…weak and fragile. Invalids…distorted…drugged out….etc.

  21. mkayla says:

    Just want to reach thru my screen, grab her and command this demon to leave her. It says so much that no one, not even her own pastor, could do this, or even knew the difference between the presence of the Holy Spirit and the demon.

  22. Carolyn says:

    Recently watching the Gods of the New Age (in particular Part 6) on You Tube by Caryl Matriciana, once again, I am struck by the similarities between what is happening in the churches these days (IHOP, CSM, NAR etc.) and the whole Eastern Mystical guru movement that began with the Beetles and has brought us to the present.

    We see a society where everything from Harry Potter’s wizardry to vampirism to the paranormal is the normal daily fare that is served up on television. It’s the normalization of the occult that is bewildering…but when you consider how the mind is being silenced, the Kundalini spirit is moving in and the Word is being abandoned, it IS just the normal progression of a society being seduced and influenced by doctrines of demons.

    All the same, it is still shocking to see how these pastors and leaders are treating, as “normal” the unbiblical manifestations that this girl displays with halted speech, jerking body movements, rolling eyes and obvious verbal expressions of pain. She is a product of the indoctrination of spiritually drunken priests and prophets of our day who are themselves senseless and deluded.

    Is there any good news? Yes, Jesus Christ is coming back for a people who are true to his Word, who are awake, alert and waiting his return.
    Acts 1:11 This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

  23. Rev's Kate & Rich M. says:

    I just lost my post– hope this one is better.

    I’ve had enough of that video!

    Someone needs to call Child Protective Services and report the leaders–clearly there is abuse.

    What is going on here? Is it because it looks like a church, and has a churchy name like International House of Prayer (IHOP), it’s okay to let young people participate in madness and mysticism–under the guise of Christianity?

    Where are the parents? Why isn’t any agency investigating anything?

    All of the foolishness we are seeing is just one step closer to Christ’s return–in the meantime, until He does, this junk will always be unacceptable. K

  24. IWTT says:

    Isn’t it interesteing that the only two having any manifestations are the two girls. Everyone else on the platform, of the 20 sec I could stomach, were pretty non-manifesting. Seems if that is the power of God then they all should be manifesting and possibly even on their FACE on the floor… Now they need to be on their knees repenting…

  25. Jenn says:

    WoW, I can’t watch more than 2 minutes of this. It is so scary how far and wide this mass deception is!

  26. Kiwi Dave says:

    The first thing that struck me with that video was the deminc manifestations, espescially with the girl on the left wearing the black cardigan with the pony-tail. They are all terribly deceived, and again this is all the fruit of the evil spirits behind the “Toronto Blessing” and the Lakeland revivals.
    I didn’t watch any more that about I minute or so as the Devil says nothing I want to hear.

    However sad this is, this is what those people are seeking in their hearts. We hold to what the scriptures say, especially when the Apostle Paul wrote to Timothy:

    “For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.”
    II Timothy 1:7 KJV

  27. Mikey says:

    I only made it 50 secs. It hurts my heart to these kids wasting their lives like this. I can only pray they will be able to look back on this in a few years and hopefully say, “What was I thinking????”

  28. Daffydil says:

    I have never seen anything quite like that. To attribute that manifestation to the Sovereign God is beyond nice words. I could not watch over a couple minutes of that as I have people in my family who are affected by epilepsy and have suffered with grande mal seizures. I was waiting for this girl to roll on the floor and foam at the mouth. wow.

  29. Cheryl says:

    Please watch the late David Wilkerson moved to tears in his warning video called “WEIRD MANIFESTATIONS’…..if he were alive he would weep for this girl and this whole IHOP and Heretical Word faith…cultish movements and doctrines of demons!!

  30. JG says:

    Javanut said:

    “Jesus commanded the spirits to “shut up and come out” – wonder if that would work in today’s charismaniac services?”

    Not likely it would work in today’s charismaniac church. Too many Spiritual Drama Queens looking for a way to be seen as being more ‘spiritual’ than the average person. I’m not directing this at the people in the video, only on a general basis.

    Let’s see how spiritual they are when they get into a massive traffic jam. That’s more evidence to me than physical shaking.

  31. Carolyn says:

    Good insights everyone!

    @Javanut. Just thought you would like to know…it is my turn to ROFL…I grew up with the Beatles and I still can’t spell their name…Beetles…now that cracked me up!

  32. Paul says:

    Sadly been there did that. The good news is that God can rescue people from this demonic evil. The bad news is that millions will refuse to listen to the still small voice that inspired scripture when He quickens scripture exposing this deceit. Today I’m judged and lied about at what used to be called TACF. Its all power for the course, I’m in blessed company, you need to start questioning your faith when men speak well of you and praise you. God will snatch some from this strange fire, He will also damn many and in this we all ought to shudder!

  33. Dianne McMahon says:

    This type of deception is going to continue as long as the people look for it and want it…..signs and wonders…. they must be prayed for…so sad and very difficult to watch without feeling a sense of the evil behind it all…..I know, I once was as deceived as this poor young girl was and involved in this type of cult…….they need to repent and He call WILL call them out as He did me and so many others with me…….PRAISE HIM for His Mercy!!!! He is all Powerful and Almighty!!!! Thank you Jesus!!!!

  34. Lady D says:

    That was me 10 years ago – thank God that Jesus set me free!!!

  35. Craig says:

    The following article from a pro-kundalini practitioner is quite eye opening:

    http://www.dharma-haven.org/oas/kundheal.htm

    …A healer who is close to having a kundalini rising experience may find that it is triggered by working with someone else’s kundalini overspill…

    Kundalini rising is sometimes a violent experience, radically changing one’s subtle energy field (making it much less subtle!) and consciousness and perception of energy. The experience can be (and often is in the West) mistaken for insanity (usually acute schizophrenia) or emotional or physical breakdown on a fairly large scale.

    …The meditation exercise above is a very grounding one, but clients also need some effective earthing exercise that they can do more frequently and quickly. They need to be encouraged to earth themselves often during the day, especially when they feel the symptoms of too much ungrounded energy. These symptoms may be physical (trembling, energy surges), emotional (unusual fragility, strong surges of emotion only partially based on circumstances, or unusual mood swings) or mental (obsessive or other abnormal thought patterns)…

    This stuff is dangerous! As I believe no true Holy Spirit indwelled Christian can be possessed but rather oppressed, the symptoms will eventually disappear upon cessation of the practices that brought forth the manifestations and, most importantly, upon repentance. However, those who are not actually believers, well…

    Especially important is her Case History:

    When he first came in to see me, he said, “I’m crazy – I hear voices.” I replied, “Well, I hear voices too, and I get paid for it.” We both thought about this for a moment, and then I added, “What’s crazy is if you believe everything they tell you.” That was apparently the right note for him, and we proceeded from there…

    …He worked very hard (the advantage of being obsessional, even moderately!) and within six months was functioning normally most of the time and had begun meditating and pursuing spiritual studies. Good outcome!

    A partial healing is a “good outcome?!” What this victim needs is to be saved in order to move toward being rid of the demons!

    All those caught up in the deception that is IHOP need our prayers. And, unfortunately, this number is growing.

  36. Craig says:

    The following was written by Alice A. Bailey in 1919 as she was voluntarily being used as a medium through which a demon channeled. Her teachings provide much of the basis for the New Age/New Spirituality of today. Note that IHOP/Bickle self-identifies as a “forerunner” as in “John the Baptist.” The New Age goal is to infiltrate the Church and attempt to destroy it from within:

    The Christian church in its many branches can serve as a St. John the Baptist, as a voice crying in the wilderness, and as a nucleus through which world illumination may be accomplished…The church must show a wide tolerance…The church as a teaching factor should take the great basic doctrines and (shattering the old forms in which they are expressed and held) show their true and inner spiritual significance. The prime work of the church is to teach, and teach ceaselessly, preserving the outer appearance in order to reach the many who are accustomed to church usages. Teachers must be trained; Bible knowledge must be spread; the sacraments must be mystically interpreted, and the power of the church to heal must be demonstrated.”[ Alice A. Bailey, The Externalisation of the Hierarchy; 1919]

    Is IHOP, International House of Prayer, a part of the “nucleus through which world illumination may be accomplished?” Is the above plan already well underway within hyper-charismatic and Emergent circles?

    The following explains terms and concepts of New Age and how some of these may apply to the Church: http://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/2011/05/09/christ-in-the-new-age/

  37. Barry says:

    Thank u for sharing Paul and lady,that was my wife and I and our family several rs. ag

  38. Kim says:

    Alice Baileys writings are indeed very revealing and demonstrate how demonic entities are working and planning infiltration of the church. Their successes are devastating.

  39. Rev's Kate & Rich M. says:

    @ Carolyn– Beatles, sweetie, BEATLES! Too funny! You crack me up.

    Don’t feel too bad, yesterday we went to a 1st birthday party and I put the wrong name on the card for the darling little girl– that’s very bad–knowing the family very well, I still called her, that day, the same wrong name… I’m truly a dingbat apparently! My husband was mortified– he’ll get over it!

    Umm, have you seen the Royals, Will and Kate there in Canada yet?

    America, have a terrific 4th and God bless… and everyone, you all have a great day.

    Kate :)

  40. Carolyn says:

    Well, Kate…being from the planet Zorb, you know what it’s like. But at least our mistakes make us seem almost human. It’s best to blend in. Shazba, my friend!

  41. Craig says:

    Kim,

    Yes indeed! I wish more would recognize the connections between hyper-charismaticism and emergent with the New Age blueprints set forth by Alice Bailey via “The Tibetan” who channeled through her.

  42. Carolyn says:

    @Craig – How true of churches today. The sacraments are preserved. Mysticism is exalted. Toleration is revered. And the Word is undermined and abandoned. And whose agenda would that be? The antichrist agenda of course. “Hath God truly said?”

    Yes, for me it was a real eye opener when I read a book by a former New Ager and found so many of the same “Christian speak” in use by him…it caused me to question the superficiality of my own spirituality as a charismatic. Is it the mystical Jesus we are following with all kinds of new revelation? Or is the Biblical Jesus we are following with no wiggle room, in that he taught his followers, very specifically, what he requires of those who call him “Lord”.

  43. Carolyn says:

    BTW – Kate…I meant nothing by the word shazba…just pulled it out of the air…I have given myself a good talking to…I should always look things up FIRST, to make sure there isn’t already a meaning…apparently, it could be taken as a profanity. So my apologies…I most definitely wasn’t being profane…just silly. ENUF said…moving on…to more important things…

  44. Carolyn says:

    @Craig – re the normalization of the rising of the Kundalini (serpent). Shocking to see how some so called Christian counsellors think, having moved away from the clear teaching of the Scriptures. They make it up as they go….

    Also. So interesting that all through Eastern religions and paganism is the serpent. When you actually start noticing that…it is the trademark of Satan seen all through false, Babylonian religion.

  45. Craig says:

    Carolyn,

    Praise God your spiritual eyes were opened by the author who was a former New Ager! The more I learn about New Age teachings, which have roots in 2nd century Gnosticism/Kabbalism and many other esoteric traditions, the more clearly I see these very things in the “church.”

    You stated, “They make it up as they go…” I have to disagree with that, at least to a point. There are specific doctrines undergirding some of these teachings taken from the occult; however, some add a slight twist to that. The thing is, the way I see it, esotericism has been repackaged and repackaged throughout the centuries to appeal to different audiences; and, my belief is that is still being done today. Some have their own schtick to differentiate them from others.

    IHOP has its own part to fulfill in the larger whole. I’ve been trying to piece this together in the past few months. The Bridal Paradigm appears to have roots in Kabbalah.

  46. Rev's Kate & Rich M. says:

    Miss Carolyn– that’s what that word implies? A possible profanity, hmm–who knew? According to whom? Isn’t that from the Mork and Mindy sitcom from the ’70’s?

    For Pete’s sake, from Zorb ( the Silly Planet: 5 light years from earth, north/south of the I95 to the west), yes, we were neighbors– as Zorbans or possibly Zorbites (I forget, it’s been sooo long since I visited); we only think the “best” of everyone all the time at every turn… you do remember our culture well and blending in is the key, as we were instructed. :)

    Okay, back to a more important subject. Did you see the Royals? K

    PS– God bless Chrystal for putting up with us!

  47. Carolyn says:

    @Craig – well, I would say that my spiritual eyes were opened a little bit by that. It was a process of many things that brought an awareness and a release from the deception that I walked in. As many others have said with a kind of awe…they cannot say exacly how their own freedom from deception came about, for it was a true work of the Spirit of grace and therefore we can only make our boast in Him.

    Your point about so many similarities in esoteric doctrines and pagan and occult teachings is an interesting observation. Not that I have the mind space to delve into the specifics of many of these doctrines…but I do know this: when you bring everything down to the lowest common denominator, there are only two religions…good and evil, Babylon and Christianity, life and death. The two trees in the garden of Eden still represent the same two doctrines today…one laid out by God, the other by the serpent putting the original “twist” on the truth. Yes, many versions of the “lie” but the same serpent and only one Truth of God, salvation by faith in Christ, woven throughout Scripture.

  48. Barry says:

    Paul,I would be looked down upon and bad mouthed as well,my wife and I and family were caught up in the TACF deception as well.If I could undo those days I would but I cant but I have repented to the Lord and asked his forgiveness for being involved in this deception.It saddens me and causes my heart pain 2 c that it is still goin on not just in Toronto but all over the place.Toronto wasnt the place it began,it began before there but it got a huge boost when it broke out in Jan, of 94.From Toronto it went out all over the world.I am thankful 2 the Lord that he rescued us from that deception but we didnt come out unscarred.You know I probably bumped into u at the church,perhaps on the prayer line.You may have even prayed for me.God bless u as u continue 2 follow him and speak out against this deception and any other deception that leads the people of God away from him and into deception and the wikderness where the enemy seeks 2 destroy them.

  49. Craig says:

    Carolyn,

    Yep, I agree. There are only 2 doctrines: 1) the Truth of Christianity as born out in Scripture; and, 2) doctrine(s) of demons.

    The reason I’m learning specifics of some of these doctrines is their prevalence even today though their roots go back to the 2nd, (and probably even 1st) century. My hope is to be able to show a strong enough connection so as to warn those who are caught up in deception. If just one person is brought out, then it is worth the effort. As a side benefit for me, it helps me to learn more Truth.

    I hope we’ve not strayed too far from the original post. Chrystal, let me know if so, and I’ll stop this discussion.

  50. anastasis says:

    Guys and gals, I really want to sound a word of caution (again) about viewing manifestations as necessarily demonic. We tend to spiritualise things we don’t understand and treat them as supernatural, but as someone who’s spent of lot of time researching this whole area, I can say that what we see here almost certainly results from trance states, which are perfectly natural phenomena. Not God, not the devil, just a product of the way the human brain is wired.

  51. kevinkleint says:

    Hi Craig, I always wondered if we’ve incorporated practices into our way of life that are actually parallel to worshipping certain pagan gods. I mean, people in “bible times” would go through certain habits, rituals and such when worshipping these gods, and each god was unique in how they wanted to be served. I just wonder if we are unknowingly practicing these things and thereby letting evil get a foothold in our lives. Just pondering ….

  52. Craig says:

    anastasis,

    I’m sure I’ve not done the research you’ve done on the subject of trance; but, one thing I’m reasonably sure of: trance states are an entrance for familiar spirits. Trance states can happen by listening to repetitive music — or any repetitive noise, in fact. There’s a reason why hypnosis is no longer used in a courtroom. From wiki:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnosis

    …Braid described “hypnotism” as a state of physical relaxation accompanied and induced by mental concentration (“abstraction”).

    It’s an altered state of consciousness — a possible entry way for familiar spirits.

  53. Ed Lamaster says:

    Anastasis,
    I might be able to agree with that point if this were not in the context of CSM (Contemplative Spirituality/Mysticism) that is a practice of the intern programs, both in the quiet, reflective type and in excessively repetitive music. Inducing trance states in a spiritual context is an opening to spiritual contact/communication (that is *the* express purpose of CSM–to turn off the thinking). The direction that interns get is that their intellect must be destroyed so they can walk by the spirit (a clever way of twisting scripture to imply that we need to stop thinking and trust in our feelings). The emergent variety is a more quiet emptying of the mind. The IHOP/NAR variety adds extremely repetitive music to induce the same state. I could not agree that this is merely the way our brains are wired and look at it as somehow neutral. Rather, this is purposeful altering of the mind for the purpose of spiritual communciation, and the outward manifestations indicate what’s been going on spiritually.

  54. kevinkleint says:

    @Anastasis: I agree, in part, a lot of it is “group dynamic”. You go into a place where everyone is doing a certain thing or acting a certain way, and it’s really easy to “join in”. This is particularly dangerous when everyone believes a certain way, and a certain type of doctrine is being taught … it’s really easy, after being in that environment for awhile, to just go with the flow….. particularly if you are impressionable, like the youth are. Only when you step outside that environment do you realize how foolish everyone is acting.

  55. Carolyn says:

    @Craig – You said, “My hope is to be able to show a strong enough connection so as to warn those who are caught up in deception. If just one person is brought out, then it is worth the effort.”

    I couldn’t agree more. If one person heeds the warning, it is worth the effort. I applaud everyone who is making an effort to shine the light and expose false teaching. We can’t take delusion away because I believe it is a heart issue, but we can put awareness of truth vs lies out in the open and when people decide they want to know the truth, it is available to them.

    @Anastasis – we’ve had this conversation before. You seem to want to lump everything into a natural plane, but having experienced the supernatural, I can’t agree with your conclusions. I have played on the Ouja Board. No one can tell me that is not a force outside the natural brain. I have seen visions and experienced supernatural phenomenon. And you will never be able to tell me it was my imagination. If that is what you want to believe, then we will have to agree to disagree.

    As far as the jerking and spasms of the Toronto Blessing and IHOP…I had personal friends that had that experience, and it is not a natural phenomenon experienced in a state of trance. They had actual pain, and they had actual occult phenomena…things being moved in their apartment in the night, etc.

  56. Jan (2) says:

    Good articles here on ihop entering the political arena.

    http://herescope.blogspot.com/

  57. Jan (2) says:

    and the endorsers of the response include, as well as Mike Bickle:
    John Hagee, Che Ahn, Cindy Jacobs and the Wagners
    http://theresponseusa.com/endorsers.php

  58. anastasis says:

    @ Craig & Ed, thanks for your comments. What I can’t currently accept is the idea that trance states are an entrance for familiar spirits. I don’t think that view has any biblical foundation whatsoever (please correct me if I am wrong). If your theory is true, then why don’t people get afflicted by spirits at trance music raves, concerts (both pop and classsical), hypnotherapy sessions, stage hypnosis, etc, etc? The answer is they don’t.

    Let me explain that the mental dissociation experienced in a trance or other altered state of consciousness produces deeply spiritual feelings, often a sense of encountering the divine. That’s why, in primitive cultures all over the world, trances are seen as a method of communicating with whatever deity or spirits those people believe in. This is exactly what Ed describes, translated to a Christian setting. But it’s all a product of the mind. Basically the brain interprets the trance experience through its particular worldview in the context where it happens – so a Christian entering a trance through the repetitive music in a Christian meeting will see it as experiencing God, because that’s what they expect to happen. Once you understand all this, it will permanently change the way you look at charismatic and pentecostal worship services!!!

    @ kevinkleint, you’re completely correct. In fact, the way people “follow the crowd” is seen as a form of hypnotic control, even if no trance-inducing techniques have been used. The main factor is the extent to which they see their leader as an authority figure (hello, Mike Bickle!)

  59. anastasis says:

    @ Carolyn, I’ll have to respond to you tomorrow.

  60. Carolyn says:

    @Kate- the Royals were in Canada? Someone should have told me….:-)

  61. kevinkleint says:

    @Anastasis – Thanks for the reply. I’ve been reading about the debate between you and Carolyn about this being either purely spiritual, mental, physical, etc … and I believe it’s a hodgepodge of all of them. There can definitely be a psycho-social element, such as we’ve discussed, but I’ve also seen outright demonic stuff happening…. people opening doors by participating in the “worship” and becoming oppressed/possessed …. As to the specifics, I’m comfortable saying “I have no clue”, all I know is what I’ve seen and experienced … I was deeply involved in the movement for 7 years or so … click on my link to read my story: http://www.honorofkings.org/elijahlist/ (if you haven’t already) …

  62. Craig says:

    anastasis:

    I agree with kevinkleint as well regarding groupthink.

    You wrote: “What I can’t currently accept is the idea that trance states are an entrance for familiar spirits. I don’t think that view has any biblical foundation whatsoever (please correct me if I am wrong). If your theory is true, then why don’t people get afflicted by spirits at trance music raves, concerts (both pop and classsical), hypnotherapy sessions, stage hypnosis, etc, etc? The answer is they don’t.

    I wasn’t trying to suggest this always leads to affliction by familiar spirits; but, I have to ask how do know for sure that none are afflicted?

    The end result of meditation can be an altered form/state of consciousness just like trance is an altered form/state of consciousness. One can be attained by the repetition of words/phrases while the other can be attained through repetitive noise. Different means to the same ends, the way I see it.

    Both require active mind participation – one by the focus on words/phrases, the other by focusing on the repetitive noise whether music or white noise. Altered forms of consciousness are an entry point for demonic spirits. Quoting Theosophist/New Ager Alice Bailey describing what some Christians practice as ‘contemplative prayer’:

    …The true meditation is something that requires the most intense application of the mind, the utmost control of thought, and an attitude which is neither negative nor positive, but an equal balance between the two…[T]he man who is attempting meditation and achieving its results is described as follows… “The Maha Yogi, the great ascetic in whom is centered the highest perfection of austere penance…the highest spiritual knowledge is acquired, and union with the great Spirit of the universe is eventually attained.” Here this union with the group life is held to be the product of meditation, and there is no other attainment.” [The Consciousness of the Atom 1919; p 110-11. “group life” emphasis added.]

    On the back cover of another book is the following:

    “An initiation is an expansion of consciousness – a means of opening the mind and heart to a recognition of what already exists in reality.” [Initiation, Human and Solar 1919.]

    “Reality” here denotes the spiritual world as opposed to the material world (which is considered illusion or maya by Gnostics, Kabbalists, and some New Agers). I do believe an “expansion” of consciousness is tantamount to an “altered” state of consciousness.

    I do not believe Christians can be possessed by the demonic; however, I do believe they can be oppressed. It is my belief that some who go to IHOP, just as some sitting in church pews throughout the world, are not converted and thus susceptible to being possessed by the demonic. Possession, as I understand it by reading the Bailey/occult material, has levels of progression.

  63. Ruitje says:

    @Jan 2, thanks for the link. I heard Brannon Howse speak and warn about this ‘Response USA’. All the false teachers and prophets flock together. I see that Jane Hansen from Aglow is also one of those people who will show up.
    This meeting is all about Dominion Theology.

    Here is the link where you can hear the radiobroadcast where Howse speaks about this Response USA-meeting.

    http://www.worldviewweekend.com/worldview-radio/episode.php?episodeid=19154

  64. anastasis says:

    @ Carolyn,

    I don’t want to lump _everything_ into a natural plane. But I do believe that we should look for a natural explanation first, and if such an explanation exists then we shouldn’t regard something as supernatural.

    I’m not sure why you mentioned using a ouija board – that is witchcraft and it’s something completely different to a music-induced trance state. I would never treat the two in a similar way.

    On manifestations, remember that people’s perception of reality is distorted when in a trance. A hypnotist can make someone believe that their clothes are on fire, and they would experience actual pain and terror just as if it was really happening. When the mind is manipulated, it cannot tell the difference between the real and the fake. Ask someone who has been “slain in the spirit” at a Pentecostal meeting. They are very unlikely to say “I just fell down because other people were doing it” or “I was pushed over”. They will say something like “When the preacher touched me, I felt the Holy Spirit come onto me like electricity, I was completely overwhelmed and couldn’t stand. I know I’ve had an encounter with the power of God – it was an amazing supernatural encounter”. That’s nonsense – they were simply manipulated into having an experience. But to them it was completely real. So I find it hard to take your friends’ reports of actual pain literally. Likewise with moving objects – how do they know they definitely moved and they didn’t just imagine it?

  65. Darrel says:

    Anastasis, You seem to be in favor of the pentecostal “worship service” as if it did worship the Lord Jesus Christ. I have never heard, read or seen in person a pentecostal/charismatic “preacher” or follower who got their doctrine right when it comes to the Lord Jesus, salvation or what real worship is.They are completely lacking in the knowledge of who the Holy Spirit is and what His job is in this present world. Their view of the Lord Jesus is that of a weakling who either requires the help and permission of a person for salvation in the first place or a “believer’s” constant effort to maintain “their” salvation under threat of being sent to hell if the required works are not performed (or both). Salvation was really their idea in the first place and totally negates Divine choice and predestination.
    Their idea of “worship” is based completely in pride and the advancement of self above their fellows. Humility and gratitude toward the Lord Jesus is not to be found. The gibberish that is passed-off as the Gift of Tongues as authored by the Holy Spirit is a disgrace and an insult to Him. Attempts at “interpretation of tongues” is a joke, because God has not spoken in the first place. “Prophesying” is the order of the day whether it concerns an individual, group, nation or the whole world. None of this prophesying comes from the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit. It all comes from the familiar spirits that are continually conjured up by the very “worship” being offered. It is a vicious cycle that feeds upon itself to an ever increasing degree.
    By excusing these actions as merely a natual mental experience indicates that you are listening to and are influenced by the very spirits that you deny are the root cause. There are people here that are trying to help you, not attack you-me included. You cannot translate any of these experiences to a Christian setting or to a believer because there is no authority in Scripture to do so. There is Scripture to the contrary: II Cor. 6:11-18. These experiences are welcomed by the flesh because they feed the ego. The more “experiences” or “manifestations” one can display the greater is his perception of being “advanced” spiritually and the more acceptable he becomes to his peers (who eventually become “underlings” instead of “peers”).

  66. Craig says:

    I should have included this portion from Bailey’s The Consciousness of the Atom as it speaks to the “groupthink” thing:

    …No longer will he [man] be limited by his own little atomic wall, but he will pass beyond it, and become, in his turn, a conscious, active, intelligent part of the greater whole.

    And how is this change brought about? The atomic stage was developed by means of the five senses [limited to physical, not spiritual/extra-sensory], and through the utilisation of the faculty of discrimination. The stage at which a man awakens to group realisation, and becomes a conscious participant in the activities of the group, is brought about in two ways: through meditation, and through a series of initiations…” [p 110; emphasis added]

    You can view more of this here:

    http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/cota/cota07.htm

    The text in the online version above is taken from an original book which has different page numbers than later paperbacks like I have; so, the relevant pages are 69/70 in the above url.

  67. Dan says:

    IHOP……Kinda makes me want pancakes and some sausage.

  68. kevinkleint says:

    …. somebody HAD to make a breakfast joke! bahahahahahaha

  69. Carolyn says:

    1 Timothy 4:1
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

    Ananstasis, my point in using the Ouija Board which is a form of Trance Channeling, is that if something is manifesting, then it is not natural. Hence spiritual deception not natural deception.

    Did the Holy Spirit ever manifest in odd ways in the New Testament times? No. Everything was done decently and in order for the glory of God.

    But we are contacting other entities and reaping the manifestations of spirit guides, angels of light, moving objects, tingling sensations, and the paranormal in various exciting, dramatic physical, emotional, conscious altering, visionary, ecstatic, magical or esoteric ways.

    What is the difference between Christian witchcraft and non-Christian witchcraft? It’s all deception…spiritual deception.

    Altered consciousness whether in Christian or non-Christian circles is an open door for contacting spiritual entities. There really is no other reason for doing it. We hope to make contact with the divine…and Satan, as an angel of light is happy to accommodate with seducing spirits and doctrines of demons.

    2 Corinthians 11:3 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.

    Are we really equipped to judge who is faking it and who is not? And what is the point? I see no reason to try and explain spiritual deception in natural terms when the Bible describes it in spiritual terms. People are hungry for spiritual deception. If they were hungry for God, they would read his Word. They would humble themselves and realize their need of God’s provision of salvation in his Son, Jesus Christ.

  70. anastasis says:

    @ Darrel,

    I found your comment rather hard to process, and I wonder if there’s some misunderstanding going on.

    You start your comment by saying “Anastasis, You seem to be in favor of the pentecostal “worship service” as if it did worship the Lord Jesus Christ.”

    I really don’t know what I wrote that might have given that impression. As far as I can tell, the only direct reference to pentecostal worship I made was this bit:

    “…a Christian entering a trance through the repetitive music in a Christian meeting will see it as experiencing God, because that’s what they expect to happen. Once you understand all this, it will permanently change the way you look at charismatic and pentecostal worship services!!!”

    In case it is not clear, that is not an endorsement of pentecostal worship services! I am saying that a pentecostal service can be seen as a ritual in which a group of people gather to experience a shared, music-induced trance (in other words, it’s basically the same as a primitive religious gathering). The claims of pentecostals to have “felt the presence of God” during the service are simply the brain interpreting the trance state through a christian worldview. In other words, it’s false!

    You then mention pentecostals having wrong doctrine regarding the Lord Jesus, salvation or real worship. I haven’t mentioned this (at least I don’t think I have), but let me respond. On these subjects, I wouldn’t go as far as to say that every pentecostal is wrong, and obviously what you would consider to be “right doctrine” depends on your particular theological perspective and how you interpret the Bible.

    On Jesus and salvation, your comment reveals that you are a Calvinist, which I am not. My reading of the Bible indicates that there are parts which support Calvinism and parts which support Arminianism. So my view is that the truth is likely to be somewhere in the middle, and these two positions need to be held in balance. You seem to describe Pentecostals/charismatics as extreme Arminians, but this is not something I recognise. There are even some “reformed charismatic” groups that hold Calvinist views. So I have to say that you are exaggerating and generalising to such an extent that it is completely inaccurate. (It’s extremely common for Calvinists to distort the views of those who don’t share their beliefs, and then to disparage them in the very way you have done).

    On worship, again, your comments are such an exaggeration and generalisation that they are not valid.

    However, I have long felt that the pentecostal movement has created a popular theology of the Holy Spirit that is completely wrong. So we are agreed there.

    I also agree with you regarding speaking in tongues – I think the vast majority (99% or more) of claimed instances of this gift are fake. Studies have shown that a trance state often produces speaking in tongues, but analysis of the speech by linguists suggests that it is nothing more than repeated syllables from the speaker’s native language and it doesn’t have enough variation to convey any information. It therefore follows that interpretations are also false. The track record with prophecy also indicates that it is nothing of the sort.

    Where we part company, though, is at this incredible statement of yours: ”It all comes from the familiar spirits that are continually conjured up by the very “worship” being offered.”

    I consider it to be pure conjecture without any scriptural foundation. In fact I believe it is contradicted by the Bible. There are plenty of instances in the Bible where God’s people either worship idols or get their worship of God wrong in some respect, but none (to the best of my knowledge) result in “familiar spirits” being conjured up.

    So please, explain to me in detail why you said that. I actually think you are falling into the same trap that has afflicted many pentecostals – that of seeing demons and evil spirits everywhere.

    I also found your final paragraph a bit confusing. I’ve presented a reasoned explanation of what causes this sort of thing, and you’re saying that it means I’m influenced by evil spirits!

    It is a fact that if people participate in a lot of repetitive music and singing, or listen to a speaker with a monotonous rhythmic voice, then a considerable number will end up in an altered state of consciousness. This has nothing to do with God, the Holy Spirit, or any other supernatural force, and it will happen whether the people are Christians or not (it’s often felt that Christians are more susceptible to being hypnotised).

    Yes, when the manifestations are falsely described as signs of the Holy Spirit, it encourages people to have them and to become more extreme in them. But that is just the flesh, as you say, nothing more, nothing less.

  71. Mike A says:

    Back on topic we go (hopefully)

    What drives me nuts is this: I just know that young lady truly believes the “shaking and baking” is the Holy Spirit moving through her. I do not think she is willfully misleading anyone – she has been mislead because she never had a strong foundation to begin with.

    And the supposed leadership nods in affirmation further leading her to the broad way that leads to hell. That should keep us all up tonight in prayer and study.

  72. Rev's Kate & Rich M. says:

    @Kevinkleint–buddy, you are waaaay late on noticing the IHOP “thang”. Funny stuff– this site has been poking at that pancake joke for quite sometime and Dan, you too have jumped on the bandwagon… welcome guys!

    Wow! There’s some serious conversation going on here. Here’s my take: yes, it does appear that more questionable manifestations (angelic, demonic, etc.) are experienced in the Pentacostal Christian group–why? There’s alot of emotionalism– and that’s the best I can do on that answer; just from observation and experience.

    We all know, I am sure, if we do not base our lives on God’s word, then we’ll be all over the place–running to and fro for a crumb of evidence that God actually exists; we expect those who don’t know Him to fall for the Deceivers lies. However we, also, as believers fall for the same lines.

    Let’s keep our noses in the bible, trust God that He is who He say’s He is and will do as He say’s He will do–go about our lives serving Him as best we can–and get the Good News out there–that Jesus has set us free from the curse of sin and death.

    One last thought: yesiree! All that mystical junk is just as real as the noses on our faces–how grand for Satan to propose to humankind, as in The Garden, that we’re all god’s with all these high, mystical powers– and we still believe him! It’s a very tasty thought.

    Don’t bite! K :)

  73. Carolyn says:

    Anastasis, judging from your last email, we are coming from similar perspectives on most things. I hope we can share our differences of opinion respectfully. If you have heard anything from me that is less than loving, I apologize and affirm my love for you as a fellow believer.

    I appreciate everyone’s input whether about groupthink or IHOP’s latest prophetic trends and all the other threads that I have read lately, but have not participated in.

    The investigative probes, the analysis of false teaching, the news flashes and even just the everyday comments from differing perspectives…all interesting, enlightening and even, for those of you who wish to lighten things up a bit once in a while, entertaining.

    What stands out to me, is our need to focus on the Scriptures. It is there that our common bond will be…not in the isms of our theology or the debates over false teaching or the diversity of our experiences…although obviously, there can be no conflict resolution in our own minds without first understanding and discussing the problem.

    In light of the Truth, we are here to expose error, to love and support each other through these difficult times while sharing our perspectives. Our fellowship with each other will always be in humility, as we walk in the Light as he is in the Light. Tomorrow we may be all gone. Today we walk circumspectly.

    Ephesians 5:14-16 14Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.15SEE THEN THAT YOU WALK CIRCUMSPECTLY, not as fools, but as wise, 16Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.

    And Chrystal, once again, thank you for your very large part in keeping things in balance.

  74. ian vincent says:

    Let’s call this an equation:

    And now, LORD, behold their threatenings: and grant unto your servants, that:

    a) with all boldness they may speak your word,

    b) By stretching forth your hand to heal;

    c) and that signs and wonders may be done

    by the name of your holy child Jesus.

    Acts 4:29-30

    .
    .
    .

    Where modern charismatic christianity gets this equation wrong, or, where they find themselves disconnected from the Church in Acts, is that they don’t get the ORDER right : the priority.

    The priority here is TO SPEAK THE WORD WITH ALL BOLDNESS, and healing and signs and wonders were to follow.

    They were SEEKING BOLDNESS to preach Jesus.

    They were not primarily seeking signs and wonders.

    And it is VITAL to understand the difference.

    http://ianvincent.wordpress.com/

  75. Craig says:

    From the 7/12/11 Herescope on IHOP/Perry is the following:

    Restorationists put an extreme emphasis on “repentance and holy living” due to their belief of “immortalization through perfection.” Dager explains that this is not about “a humble dying to self, but [rather] the desire to see God move more quickly in establishing the Church in dominion over the nations.”(Dager, p. 73) This is accompanied by a mystical false piety which emphasizes supernatural power in prayer and worship that creates “a euphoric state of altered consciousness from repetitious choruses…. [and] a frame of mind open to suggestion by the subsequent preaching of dominionist teachers who build on the fervor of the moment with messages of future power and glory.”(Dager, p. 75) The current IHOP movement can be characterized by precisely this description. [emphasis added]

    The quotes are from Al Dager’s excellent Vengeance is Ours: The Church in Dominion

  76. anastasis says:

    @ Mike A,

    I agree with you when you say that the young lady in question is deceived. As I suggested in my previous long comment, such misunderstandings are commonplace in many pentecostal and charismatic groups.

    However, I wasn’t sure when you then went on to link this to the “broad way that leads to hell”. Please could you explain your reasoning here.

    @ Carolyn,

    Thanks for your gracious comment. I also hope that I have avoided unloving language.

  77. Mike A says:

    @anastasis
    I stated “And the supposed leadership nods in affirmation further leading her to the broad way that leads to hell”.

    As Leonard Ravenhill once said, “There is only one way to heaven, but a million roads to hell”.

    With that being said, Matt 7:13 “Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat”.

  78. Austin says:

    What does it matter to you if it’s bringing her and those around her closer to Jesus?

    And what if the Lord IS moving on her? Bummer, because you’re putting this girl, who genuinely loves Jesus, down.

    You guys are all so wrapped up in the manifestations that you’re completely disregarding the rest of IHOP, and the rest of this girl’s beliefs. Find something better to do than to spend your time bashing those who love Jesus, who believe in the Bible, and who may be a little different denominationally than you.

    You know what I think is sad? That you’re placing so much energy into mocking this and trying to tear her apart by calling it “unholy.” Perhaps your time would be better spent encouraging the body of Christ instead of being nitpicky.

    I grew up Baptist but I attend IHOP occassionally. The Awakening meetings were encouraging and Biblical. And it makes me sad that instead of praising the Lord for healing the heart of this girl, you call her movements “unholy” and “unbiblical.”

  79. ian vincent says:

    In continuation of my post, a few posts up the page :

    Just putting the twitching, jerking and drunkeness aside for a moment, the thing that really gets the gander up of the Soldier of the Cross is that groups like IHOP etc. do NOT boldly and unashamedly preach Jesus or His Cross with authority.

    “And now, LORD, behold their threatenings: and grant unto your servants, that:with ALL BOLDNESS they may speak your word…”

    If any group went out into the streets and anywhere preaching Jesus, the Cross and repentance, warning of the wrath to come, with love, with real compassion, as the fruit of the Spirit, then perhaps some of you MacArthurites would not mind if some spoke in tongues, or some had demons cast out, or if some started hollering or crying. i would hope that those things, if they accompany the preaching of the Truth, would not stumble you.

    Of course, the manifestations at IHOP etc. have no Biblical precedent. But don’t reject gifts and experiences which DO have NT precedents.

    If street preachers (not religious salesmen) preached with Apostolic power the same message as the Apostles and similar things happened as happened when the Apostles preached, then only the religious pharisee would be offended by that.

    And, some of the “Berean” or “discernment” people i’ve met are MORE nuts than probably anyone at IHOP. Just a little perspective.

    http://ianvincent.wordpress.com/

  80. Darrel says:

    When stuff like this is passed off as legitimate it is a sad day for those that name the Name of Christ. To insult the Holy Spirit by saying that He is causing this is way out of bounds. I hear the words “prophesy”, “healing”, “deliverance” and so forth-all the right buzz words for those who want this to be how the true God really operates. False prophets always draw attention to themselves. Cult members always fawn over their leaders and are in need of just a crumb of acceptance, doing as is expected to gain even the smallest favor. This is no different. Pity should be directed her way and prayer that she might indeed be delivered from the lies she has believed. This is angel of light deception stuff. Where is repentance from sin? Where is belief on the Lord Jesus Christ? Where is eternal life? What is in the video is more akin to demonic possession as portrayed in the Gospels and the Book of Acts. There is nothing in Scripture to indicate that the Apostles displayed this type of tripe either. Since there were only twelve of them, you’ll not find any around today, eventhough there are many who are self-appointed to this honor.

    John 15:26 and 16:8-14 tells us what the Holy Spirit does. He ALWAYS speaks about Jesus and ONLY about Jesus. He seeks no glory or attention for Himself. He does not “manifest” Himself as is shown in the video, instead He show us Jesus, our sin and His remedy. The gifts of the Spirit are given for the ultimate exaltation of Jesus Christ as are the fruits of the Spirit in a believer. It matters not if this “manifestation” is caused by the flesh or by demons. What matters is that it is NOT authored by the Holy Spirit and therefore does not and cannot honor the Savior.

    If you find this mean-spirited and hateful, so be it. Would you have someone lie to you to soothe your emotions or speak the truth? I hear: “speak the truth in love” as if the message should be diminished so as not to offend. There is not one soul around God’s throne that was not first offended by his own sin. Realizing that our entire life outside of Jesus Christ is an offense to Him is always a good beginning. Speaking the truth IS LOVE.

  81. ian vincent says:

    Austin wrote:

    “What does it matter to you if it’s bringing her and those around her closer to Jesus?”
    .
    .
    .

    Do you think that jerking and twitching brings someone closer to Jesus? Is that anywhere in the NT?

    Then this young lady must be closer to Jesus than anyone in the Bible.

    And if people believe that twitching brings you closer to Jesus then they may try out twitching to see if it gets them closer, just copying others.

    On “putting down” this young lady, that’s not fair. In fact, that’s the hallmarks of a cult, where intelligent debate and critical thinking is not allowed and is called “putting others down”.

    http://ianvincent.wordpress.com/

  82. shane says:

    “MacArthurites ”
    That’s a new one. Calvinists, Arminians, MacArthurites, oh my!

  83. Rev's Kate & Rich M. says:

    Hi Austin– unfortunately many, not all, of these very large ministries have a problem with abuse of power.

    Sad, but true as it often goes with the territory– there’s that human nature thing going on which poses a true concern and we should be watchful… always.

    God’s best. K

  84. Craig says:

    Ian, you wrote On “putting down” this young lady, that’s not fair. In fact, that’s the hallmarks of a cult, where intelligent debate and critical thinking is not allowed and is called “putting others down”.

    Yes, you are correct. This sort of thing is known as Loaded Language.

  85. Carolyn says:

    @Ian. – You said, ” Where modern charismatic christianity gets this equation wrong, or, where they find themselves disconnected from the Church in Acts, is that they don’t get the ORDER right : the priority. ”

    Yes, we still have people in modern times who are in need of healing and deliverance. It is the Word of God, being preached in it’s power and demonstration that will bring results. But in modern preaching, we don’t hear, “Turn, turn from your wicked ways and live, says the Lord”; we don’t hear “Is my arm too short to save? but your sins have separated you…”

    Now those are the faithful words of a true prophet of God. They risked their reputations and well being to tell the people to get right with God. Now we have people pleasers who put the word “prophetic” in front of whatever they do and think they have the Lord’s blessing. Prophetic dance, prophetic moonwalking, prophetic worship…I think the Lord wants to vomit. If they would only read the Word while they still have it because in the days ahead, a scenario like this will be seen on earth…are we almost there?

    Amos 8:11 “The days are coming,” declares the Sovereign LORD,
    “when I will send a famine through the land—
    not a famine of food or a thirst for water,
    but a famine of hearing the words of the LORD.
    12 People will stagger from sea to sea
    and wander from north to east,
    searching for the word of the LORD,
    but they will not find it.

  86. Carolyn says:

    Austin – you said, “I grew up Baptist but I attend IHOP occassionally. The Awakening meetings were encouraging and Biblical. And it makes me sad that instead of praising the Lord for healing the heart of this girl, you call her movements “unholy” and “unbiblical.”

    Not only the movements of this girl are unbibilical…the whole IHOP movement is unbiblical. It is a cult and fits the dictionary description perfectly:
    cult   
    1.a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies.
    2.an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, especially as manifested by a body of admirers
    3.the object of such devotion.

    In this case, IHOP is the object of devotion. Look into it. It makes demands on its members that the Bible never intended. It calls upon it’s followers to strictly follow a particular system of religious worship with undbending rules for prayer and conformity to it’s design rather than freedom in the Spirit. It calls for strict adherence to men’s political agendas, religious ambitions (including Mike Bickle’s) and sets up rigid prayer schedules that members are expected to keep.

    It screams cult. Read up on it. Don’t just follow blindly or you will become one of the blind leading the blind. You, along with others who have pledged allegiance to IHOP will find yourself confined to the perimeters of the ditch.
    Matthew 15: 13But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
    14Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

  87. anastasis says:

    @ Mike A, sorry, only just seen your comment of July 18, 2011 at 3:43 pm.

    What you’ve said is illogical and unbiblical. The whole meaning of the texts you quote is that the narrow way to salvation is faith in Jesus, and the broad way to hell is anything else.

    You can have faith in Jesus but completely wrong ideas about work of the Holy Spirit. But God will forgive you for your wrong theology. If he didn’t then we all would be in trouble, because none of use have perfect theology. Baptists say baptism is only for believers, presbyterians baptise babies – they both can’t be right. But whoever turns out to be wrong isn’t going to hell because of it. Likewise you can believe that manifestations are from the Holy Spirit. You’ll be forgiven.

    I am in no way justifying or endorsing what we see on this video, It is wrong, it is false, and it is dangerous. But it’s not going to send anyone to hell. If you disagree, please provide a reasoned response..

  88. anastasis says:

    @ Austin, comment of July 19, 2011 at 7:31 pm

    I have been researching the sort of thing we see on this video for years. I’ve studied the bible and the works of numerous secular and christian authors. I’ve been to loads of charismatic and pentecostal meetings. I’ve watched DVDs and scoured the internet for anything that helps understand what’s behind all this. I’ve also been a Christian for over 25 years, which hopefully gives me some degree of spiritual maturity.

    I say all that not for self-promotion, but in an attempt to make you understand that I have not come to my conclusions lightly or based on any preconceived ideas or personal prejudices. And so, if I consider that what we see on this video is unbiblical and dangerous, I think I have not just the right, but also the obligation, to speak out and warn other people about it. I would be failing in my duty to God and the wider church if I did not.

    People can have all sorts of religious experiences and manifestations that they attribute to God or the Holy Spirit, they can feel encouraged and built-up in their faith because of them, and they can be genuine lovers of Jesus. But they can still be deceived. No-one who has been brainwashed realises that they have. Hypnotic manipulation is very powerful indeed.

    As far as IHOP in general goes, there’s a lot of evidence to suggest it is a cult, or something approaching a cult. Again, that is reason to warn people. You may have found it encouraging, but that doesn’t change what it is.

  89. Ruitje says:

    In Europe they now have the EHOP, European House of Prayer. They work with IHOP and offer the same teachings. They have a conference in august in the Netherlands… Here they don’t know the dangers and the real source of the IHOP-heresy.

    I have read an interesting booklet from Jewel Grewe about Joel’s Army (Discernment Ministries). I hope I can use her information to warn people in my country.

  90. Ruitje says:

    Jewel Grewe writes about Mike Bickle and IHOP.

  91. Eli says:

    Good post Carolyn!

    Anastasia said: “As far as IHOP in general goes, there’s a lot of evidence to suggest it is a cult, or something approaching a cult. Again, that is reason to warn people. You may have found it encouraging, but that doesn’t change what it is.”
    Amen!!
    As i said to a friend who is neck deep in this stuff, “just because it’s all sparkly and makes you feel warm and fuzzy, doesn’t mean it’s from God”.

  92. Rev's Kate & Rich M. says:

    Hey Anastis– you have some really good points on forgiveness.

    @ Everyone : Some nutty stuff I’ve been noticing Christians are doing, just some observations: crazy thinking.

    Just a short preface. May I say, firstly, this is not directed at anyone.

    Let’s call them Cardinal sins–the big ones– murder (hope no one’s doing that one) and adultery (or at one time it was)– sins that won’t send us to hell because of the Blood of Redemption and forgiveness.

    All sin is forgivable, except the sin against the Holy Spirit– but nasty consequences are a lifetime result though; sociologically and religiously, murder is the “bigee”, which attached to it, comes serious jail time and the possible death penalty.

    Adultery is rarely punishable by law and is many times just flagrantly committed because, “If I just repent and say I’m sorry, God will forgive me and I’ll still go to heaven anyway (along with my new wife/husband or whatever)!” Sounds stupid–though forgivable.

    Hey, marriages fall apart, I understand.

    “Lesser sins”, let’s call them and some punishable by law too: children’s complete disregard for their parent’s position; pedophilia practiced; marital abuse; stealing and lying; envy and lust (all kinds, by the way); financial idolatry–that’s just to name a few. Allow me to tag on, acting like barnyard animals with no restraints with nary a social skill (my personal peeve).

    What’s my point? As I stated, Christians, not all, are using this false sense of, “I’ll be OK because I have the Blood. I’m goin’ to heaven anyway”, and that just reeks and sounds like a load of bull!

    Yes, forgiveness is available to all who come to the cross and ask for it– but, how stupid do we look? How foolish we appear–what a mess we make of Jesus’ perfect sacrifice on the cross–we wreak havoc and make the word of God to no effect.

    In my humble opinion, that particular thought process is the Cardinal sin– deplorable and reprehensible–childish… and again, may I use the word… stupid! :) K

  93. Mike A says:

    @ anastasis

    I disagree IF they are preaching a different Jesus. Outside of that, we agree (but it is my opinion they are preaching/worshipping a different Jesus, not unlike mormons, JWs or even muslims).

  94. Craig says:

    At the risk of beating a dead horse, here’s more info on Kundalini from The Sedona New Age Center.

    …As the first symptoms of an awakened Kundalini, some people experience violent shaking of different parts of the body. Aspirants also feel pleasure of a spiritual kind and the brain becomes hot and heavy as if under intoxication.

    There are several methods of achieving this goal – awakening the Kundalini so that it may achieve this higher level of awareness. Chanting of mantras continuously or endless repetition of sacred passages, serves to tire the mind from thinking about many things and wandering aimlessly, and thereby brings about the desired concentration, a form of self hypnosis which activates the Kundalini.

    Meditation arouses Kundalini. When we sit still, our automatic bodily functions find a minimal rhythm, and our mind is energized more fully to dwell on positive thoughts which in turn generate additional energies. Loving thoughts balance and harmonize body-mind, allowing Kundalini to flow from the unseen source.

    …Though Kundalini awakening is perhaps the greatest prize on the spiritual quest, the awakening and its attendant process of renewal is not without peril. The process of transformation can be marked by both emotional and mental states of ecstasy as well as periods of decline and distress. Kundalini awakening can create experiences that mimic psychiatric and somatic disorders. Nothing remains untouched by Kundalini…

  95. iwanthetruth says:

    I have a question based on this verse…

    Matthew 7:21-23
    New American Standard Bible (NASB)

    21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many [a]miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

    Who do these folks think these people are? In their interpretation of these scriptures, who are the one that will say “‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many [a]miracles?’”

    Are these folks who believe they are following Jesus?

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