When Rick Warren introduced his Daniel Plan at Saddleback Church, I wondered if John Piper regretted endorsing Warren by calling him “Biblically sound,” and having him speak at his Desiring God Conference in 2010. There’s no need to wonder any more, because Piper’s Desiring God 2011 Regional Conference is going to be held at (drum roll please) Saddleback.
Regarding this situation, here is a post from Ingrid Schlueter.
I would be interested in hearing the reasoning of Piper defenders in excusing this latest lapse of spiritual discernment and judgment.
Ingrid Schlueter calls this a spiritual betrayal. I would agree.
What do you think? The blind leading the blind?
I think John Piper has been to the left of center for some time and his leaning has just become more noticable now that he has chosen to lean toward Rick Warren’ camp.
These are indeed the days that will test the hearts of men -
Get Ready and Be Prepared.!!..
All I can say is it doesn’t seem that anyone is safe from any of this stuff. It doesn’t seem like a person can trust any pastor, leader, or church to remain sound anymore. And it certainly isn’t safe to take what any of the say as the truth without thoroughly digesting it and testing it ourselves. And that can get to be a thoroughtly exhausting process. It is so sad.
Ali
Amein and Amein again.
As a dog returns to its vomit….
together, birds of a feather will flock
It really grieves me. Along with MacArthur, Piper was one one of the first guys in the reformed camp that I really looked up to when I came out of Charismania. I don’t understand it and it just baffles me?
Piper has been swimming in the “Sea of John Piper” for a long time now so this should come as no great shock or surprise. Those that come to his defense for this undefendable act will be added to the rolls as fellow charlatans, liars, heretics and lovers of the wicked one. The wolf pack is growing. It’s time to chose-up sides. Chose wisely!
Nothing new about Piper… His “gospel” message is messed up and so is Warren’s — so they belong together..
The tragedy is that people follow both of them.
I do think Ingrid Schlueter has issued a fair warning: If John Piper can fall, then so can anyone of us. Deception is that powerful and will become more so in the days ahead.
For myself, I will ‘cling to the old rugged cross, and exchange it someday for a crown.’
Ok, I can see why smeone like Relevant Rick would sidle up to Piper (trying to boost his credibility) but why on earth would Piper want to be associated with Warren? Inquirig minds want to know…
Monsieur Truthy
I was at a church which was always a little odd – borderline charismatic, semi-emergent – and they were starting to introduce ash Wednesday services and prayer labyrinths. They had done all the Rick Warren programs, small groups had done “Velvet Elvis” and even a guest speaker made mention of how moved he was by the Rob Bell Nooma videos. They sent their Youth pastor off to a Brian MacLaren conference. Caution was thrown to the wind.
So you can imagine what I thought when an email began circulating from them recommending a video by John Piper. My flag went up regarding Piper right off the bat.
Because they didn’t circulate videos of John MacArthur. Nothing by Paul Washer. Roger Oakland was invited once but that was only when he was dealing with Creation – after that there were some bad feelings about what he’d gotten into and after bringing it up I was “cautioned” by the pastor to avoid material that focuses on discernment.
My point being is that like begets like. I was never impressed with Piper from the video that was circulating by email and by the kind who he attracted and who they associated with I had reservations about him. Now I’m glad I didn’t entertain his thoughts or I would feel betrayed along with the rest of you. The bottom line is that while we appreciate our teachers they are mortal men who are prone to this kind of thing. But what they do next will determine what they are made of.
This is tough times, and the tip of an iceberg that is about to sink a lot of people who think they are anchored to a rock.
II Timothy 4:3-4 has been screaming at me the last few weeks, and every post you make, Chrystal makes it scream even louder!!!! Sadly, someone I know on FaceBook posted this scripture last week and he is in an apostate congregation-the blindness of so called believers is amazing to me, but this is predicted in the Word more than once. We are to stay close to our Abba Father and not compromise on what His Word teaches. Thanks again Chrystal for alerting the Body to this (and I am from the metro area where John Piper pastors-ugh)
I don’t like Rick Warren. Something about his teachings have never set well with me, mainly, because it’s heretical….BUT
I know some very sound and reformed guys who have met and talked with Rick Warren defend him and say, yes, he is our brother in Christ and that he actually is very much so learning a lot of things and realizing the contrasts.
I guess with John Piper and Rick Warren….I think that there is more to this than meets the eye. I just don’t understand why John Piper would call out somebody like Rob Bell, but see nothing wrong with Rick Warren. Something is going on here that we are not seeing. What? I don’t know…
I like Piper. He has never led me astray with his teachings and his books because they are biblically accurate, however, I’m just confused as the rest of you.
I’m praying, and I’m just hoping that John Piper will please examine all of this.
R. C. Sproul is having Piper at his conference in March. He needs to be made aware of this unholy alliance-Piper/Warren.
@cherylu-Preach it sister. A wise and sound word. Be a Berean and confront your pastor gently and privately when He misses it. If He/She is unapologetic or continues in other error GET OUT.
I have tried to contact John Piper. I don’t know why; he is not going to listen to a lowly preacher like me. If R.C. Sproul, John McArthur, Sinclair Ferguson, D.A. Carson, Alistair Begg, Tullian Tchividjian, Steven Lawson and other prominent sovereign grace preachers would speak out, and tell him to get straightened out, it might work. But, do they care? Do they have the courage? By the way, are any of them going to be at Saddleback with Piper? Would Mr. Sproul have Mr. Piper at his conference in Florida on March 24th as currently planned, if he still plans to yoke with Warren? Brothers and sisters, this is serious stuff! We are to “Have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them”(Ephesians 5:11). May God help us! We must stand! Where are the Spurgeons and Ryles of our day? Charles
The problem I have with that article is the last paragraph. The writer states: ” If John Piper can fall, we can also fall.” John Piper is just a man, and that what’s wrong these days. Men are being deified! No matter how knowledgeable he may have appeared, he didn’t have a heart fo the LORD! We are to loo to Jesus as the Author and Finisher of our faith, not any man. That’s what happens when you take your eyes off Jesus and look to Pastor so-and-so as being “great men of God”. It also leads to this type of behaviour where you’ll alsways end up gettinghurt and being dissappointed for placing men like John Piper on pedastals. The scriptures speak plainly:
“My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons. For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment; And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool: Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts? Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him? But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats? Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called? ” James 2:1 – 6 KJV
Sorry Ingrid, but John Piper didn’t fall – he lept! You can see at the glee on his face! If John Piper truly was filled with the Holy Spirit and knew the Word of God, he would have shown Rick Warren the door! He has sold out for the pleasures and the prestige of the world!
“For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.” Phillipians 3:18 & 19 KJV
Wow… We’ve had some good friends give us Piper stuff, books, and high aclaims, etc. (several, actually), and we’ve just observed, sort of cautiously. I don’t know why… maybe because he is SO compelling, cutting edge, and has something of a charisma about him? But this helps me understand why I never seemed comfortable with being truly on board with him. (I am not invincable. I’ve trusted others I should not have, temporarily, until God got my attention through His Word.) So, he can not be trusted. This is a SERIOUS ERROR on his part. I am shocked that he could in clear conscience partner up with Warren, and be fitted into that mix of deception. May those who follow/listen to him not go blindly without some serious searching and testing here…
Is this a case of wearing down the saints? Satan’s clever tactics of accusing the brethren to the point of confusion. When smooth talkers tell us we are not being nice, and they accuse us of doctrinal narrowness and literal interpretation…we should say, thank you very much. Yes, my doctrine is fixed and my faith is in the only standard that is unmoveable.
Purpose Driven…Desiring God…think works. God is shaking us loose of our works and those that will not listen to the Spirit, will continue on with their works. They will be unified in error. Yes, Chystal, the blind leading the blind.
Those who listen to the discipline of the Spirit, will grow ever more aware that they can do nothing on their own. That their one and only hope is in Christ and his power. They will listen to their Shepherd’s voice and find comfort.
John 10
He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice.
Kiwi Dave,
I agree that we are not to deify men.
But the Bible also tells us that men that are pastor’s/in leadership positions are to be examples to us. Paul told Timothy, “Let no one despise you for your youth, but set the believers an example in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith, in purity.” I Timothy 4:12 And again Paul speaking, “It was not because we do not have that right, but to give you in ourselves an example to imitate.” II Thess 3:9
But the most powerful of these verses, I think, is I Cor 11:1. Again it is Paul speaking. “Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.”
These are folks we are to look up to as examples and we are to imitate godly leaders. I think that is a good share of the reason it hurts so bad when someone that you believed to be a godly man falls on his face.
@Kiwi Dave
It also borders on idolatry. Putting any man between us and YHWH is in violation of the word. The only place I see any person standing between someone and YHWH is in the case of a husband but that is still not the same thing as putting them between it is more along the lines of making decisions together.
When my wife tells me she thinks YHWH wants us to do something, for instance go to a particular service somewhere, I take it to Him. If I have peace we do the thing if I do not we do not do it. This is because I have been with my wife for 16 years and I know her relationship with Him.
It would be foolish for me not to listen to her when she is in the Word or prayer for several hours a day.
Don’t follow any man. I even tell my wife that as I know I am sometimes a bit stubborn.
Thank you to Berakah for the 2 Tim 4:3-4 note. Very relevant. How many here would have their ‘faith shaken’ if it was MacArthur teaming up with Warren? If you think that that would never happen, you are probably right. The people in Piper’s church probably thought it would never happen to their pastor. There’s a world of difference between Piper and MacArthur…but they are both men. Men fail-I fail. Possibly God is getting Piper ready to be humbled.
Really, what is the difference between Piper’s Christianity and Rick Warren’s? They are both working to bring satisfaction to the life of the individual, when Christ told us we must lose our life.
Why would we not recognized Christian Hedonism as a false idea…working to bring pleasure, coated in Christianese. Why can’t people see this and other of Piper’s false, Word twisting ideas? I think that he appeals to the “Churched”, those who are immersed in the Christian Culture, but have never obeyed Christ’s command to “deny self and come after Me”. They are both guilty of working for the salvation of the outer man while the spiritual man has died on the vine.
Here is a question: What has suffering produced in you? More idolatry and your own goals? or a clearer picture of God’s goals for perfecting your faith in Him alone?
2 Corinthians 12:9
But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me.
@ cherylu & ephraiyim,
I believe what we are seeing is like a hangover from what is a mid to late 20th century phenomenon of “pop stars”, or as ephraiyim rightly points out – idol worship. I mean , C’mon “American Idol”, “Australian Idol” etc, etc. True men of God, though most defnitely not perfect, are humble, and close to God. Because of this a true man “after God’s own heart” will be a beacon of light and most definitely a good example to his congregation. He will not have fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, and will protect the Lord’s sheep as it is his calling – to be a shepherd. As for pastors like John Piper who knowingly follow after false prophets like Phil Warren leading their flock with them, we have this warning:
“Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD. Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.” Jeremiah 23:1 & 2 KJV
This however, is true of all who love the Lord with a pure heart and are able to discern the truth of His Words and love to follow sound doctrine:
“Truly, truly, I say to you, He that enters not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. But he that enters in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the porter opens; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calls his own sheep by name, and leads them out. And when he puts forth his own sheep, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.” John 10:1 – 5 KJV
“I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd gives his life for the sheep. But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep, and flees: and the wolf catches them, and scatters the sheep. The hireling flees, because he is an hireling, and cares not for the sheep. I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.” John 10:11 – 14 KJV
I follow no man. I would not be shaken, saddened perhaps, but not shaken if even, God forbid, MacArthur followed Warren. I do not follow personalities, I follow a risen Lord. I test even those I trust the most against scripture. I will not make idols of my favorites and flock to the pedestal raising “conferences”. These “conferences”, like saying one was a Christian, used to mean something. Now, they are suspect, being man raising much more often than Christ honoring.
Piper will, if he does not repent of his Warren idolizing, be separated, and rightly so. The goats will always follow, but the sheep know the masters voice, and it is not one of a man. Men will rightly discern that Piper needs to be brought back to the fold, or shunned.
God have mercy on Piper, but more mercy on those who will follow him to the temple of blasphemy called Saddleback.
Just out of curiosity, how many of you who have commented here are part of or have been involved in a Purpose Driven Model Church?
I may have said this here before, but let’s please not condemn all pastors for the sins of a few (many?). Good pastors still exist, they just are typically in small churches and not in the mainstream media (no bestselling dvds and books on the shelves in “Christian” bookstores). They don’t have any resources considered “great” in a media driven world, but they have the greatest resource, God’s Holy Word. I try to preach truth and teach the men and women God has entrusted to my care about discernment. I have taught against the false teachings invading the church, and perhaps as pastors that is where many of us are failing. I sense a desire not to call out our fellow pastors, as if it is unacceptable to call down the name of another pastor from the pulpit, no matter how apostate he is. I have no problem doing that. I am not perfect, but I seek God’s will on how to guide the church to which he has called me. Please pray for all of us that are called to the ministry to be discerning and stand against ravenous wolves that are slaughtering the sheep on a daily basis.
John Piper about Rick W.
“I do think he’s deeply theological. He’s a brilliant man. He wouldn’t have the church he does or the Peace Plan, or all the influence he does and of course the greatest sentence in the Purpose Driven Life is the first one isn’t it? It’s not about you, it’s about God. The Glory of God. So I don’t think he’s emergent. At root I think he is theological and doctrinal and sound.” ~Piper from the audio
“At root I think he is theological and doctrinal and sound”
These words have been the basis for all of this hullabaloo. If this is causing us to freak out and chastise a mere man who is loved by God the same as us and has a long history of rightly dividing the work and preaching sound doctrine. I don’t know what to say other than we are being short sighted and way to quick to judge.
if AT ROOT was emphasized more, maybe people wouldn’t be so enamored with hatred towards John Piper. It may be interpreted that JP thinks RW is a baby christian and needs discipleship or any number of things, but no, he’s a heretic and he wants to destroy the body of Christ, he must be the anti-christ!
Please extend some grace and love towards a brother if we want to do something go put your face on the floor and pray for him. God’s use of us on this earth does not look the same for each of us. I’m sure JP knows all eyes are on him and if God is leading him to have a conference at that building then so be it. Can you know the mind of God concerning these things? John has not sinned and yet it seems like people would line up to stone him anyways, if it were legal.
If you had a friend like Rick Warren how would you treat him? Like a non-believer? Than you would love on him and spend more time with him showing him truth, love and grace. I hope.
Chase, is the Word of God the only and final authority in all that a believer does, thinks, and says? If your answer is no then we have no common ground to continue a discussion. But if your answer is yes, then why would you try to circumvent His word in the defense of Piper/Warren? Just because one man declares another to be “theological and doctrinal and sound” does not make it a fact before the all-knowing Lord that we serve.
You said: “can we know the mind of God…”? I know you want every one to say with you that the answer is “no”, however the correct answer is “YES”. Does not the scripture say that “we have the mind of Christ”? Yes you can know the right or wrong of a man by how his words and actions match that of scripture. That is all we have to go by. And scripture does teach us to be discerning, in fact it demands it! To be discerning you MUST make a judgment (yes YOU must JUDGE) as to whether or not a man’s life and mouth is in line with the scriptures.
If you are more interested in defending a man who does not teach the truth of the Word of God then you are in league with his evil deeds and will be judged by the Righteous Judge accordingly. You are so quick to tell others that they should not “judge” a man and you do not know or refuse to investigate the depth of the heresy of men like Piper and Warren. Piper’s support of the “Federal Vision” heresy has not been mentioned on this sight. Not much has been said about his love for “Christian Hedonism”. Both are flaming lies from the pit of hell and you want us to back off of our justified critisim of two heretics? Not gonna happen!
Chase – I don’t recall Paul telling his brothers to get on their face and pray for false “brothers” who refused to spare the sheep from apostasy. Rather he said:
2 Timothy 2:
17 Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 who have departed from the truth.
which it has…their teaching has actually spread like cancer. What better word to use than anti Christ? By their works they are proving who their allegiance is to.
Were we instructed to contend for the wolves, or to contend for the faith? If you think their faith is the the original faith once delivered to the saints, then I would suggest you read your Bible again and then research what they are saying. When you study their doctrine, you realize that they got off track a long time ago with man centered doctrines. It hasn’t just popped up out of nowhere.
Ephesians 5:11
Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.
I personally don’t want to get cozy with the wolves. Anyway, if we want to help them, better to stay with the life guard crew who continue to shine the Light; where there is a chance of helping them if they ever decide to get back to Truth. If we all get in the boat with them, we will all drown.
Or back to Chrystal’s reference…the blind leading the blind…they will both fall into the ditch. There is a blindness that comes with compromise.
When you combine the Rick Warren followers, and Tony Blair followers, and Cindy Jacob followers, and Glenn Beck followers, and the new Gay Christian movement, and the Word of Faith Movement, and the CFR Church leaders, and the Universalist a la’ The Shack movement, and the Modern Judiazer Movement (just google it), and the Occult in the Church movement, you start to get a picture of an apostate church.
“First there will be a falling away (apostasia in the greek- apostate) then the lawless one shall appear with all kinds of lying signs and wonders.”
Oh’ forgot the Social Justice/Just Be Nice Movement.
I’m sure JP knows all eyes are on him and if God is leading him to have a conference at that building then so be it. Can you know the mind of God concerning these things? John has not sinned and yet it seems like people would line up to stone him anyways, if it were legal.
I guess the proof will be in the pudding. Let’s see what John Piper says and does at this conference. IMHO, I believe JP is embracing the methods. Many have researched and studied this method and many have come to the conclusion that this is nothing more than Pelagian Theology. It was considered heretical.
As for me I have watched this PDL infiltrate all sorts of churches in my area and have heard first hand the the weakened gospel from the pulpits of many of them. I was involved in this junk for over 10+ years, I repent. PDL is nothing more than a man-made-vain-imagination program. The leaven is taking over the whole lump from one side just as the dominionist theology is taking over the other side.
My bible actaully tells me to seperate from those who teach another Jesus. I believe that there have been 100′s and 100′s of people who have and are still praying for Gods truth to be recognized by these people who are teaching a method that is not biblical. Our manual is the scriptures, Gods Word. He laid out the process by which we are to disciple all nations. Yet we presume to take methods in our own hands and produce the numbers to show that we are successful.
At root I think he is theological and doctrinal and sound.”
What does this really mean? This quote is not saying that RW is Biblically doctrinally sound. As I read this it could mean anything, any kind of doctrine. He could be theological yes but biblically? Teaching the doctrines of Jesus Christ? Which Jesus?
John Piper about Rick W.
“I do think he’s deeply theological. He’s a brilliant man. He wouldn’t have the church he does or the Peace Plan, or all the influence he does and of course the greatest sentence in the Purpose Driven Life is the first one isn’t it? It’s not about you, it’s about God. The Glory of God. So I don’t think he’s emergent. At root I think he is theological and doctrinal and sound.” ~Piper from the audio
Well Mr. Piper is correct, RW is not Emergent but rather Pelagian… see we tend to read these quotes without looking at the words. John Piper is addressing the issue if RW is emergent which isn’t the issue at all.
Gotta read more closely folks….
I am so grieved by the seeker sensitive movement. Here is another example of it at at church near Seattle. They’re all over the area where I live.
http://www.xxxdebate.com/
@ Chase… Maybe you should do a bit of research about WHY some of us are very concerned about this allegiance. I looked up the Saddleback website, and dug in a bit to see what Rick Warren is doing just now. I came away very troubled. He is bringing in 3 doctors, one proclaiming to be Christian, but advocating meditation, and the other 2 of other faiths (one a muslim)… and parading them on stage to excite the people into jumping on his new “Daniel Fast” blitz. It is the trendy new “thing” now that “Purpose Driven” is old hat, and that is all that it is. No cross, No Christ at the front and center. But rather works… “change the world”… in such a way that we can hold hands with any faith, and have peace and unity. Food, and health… now THAT is an issue that we can smile and hug over, so let’s just sink to that level? We are warned of this kind of thing in God’s Word. An account I’ve read of the Daniel Fast conference (linked on Chrystal’s article) makes it sound like a hyped-up chant session… hardly leading the sheep to truth. These men were selling their own wares at Rick Warren’s conference… NOT Christian materials… do some research. If John Piper wants to walk hand in hand with Rick Warren on the heels of advocating this kind of junk, he should do so with some fear and trembling. A new “diet” (which is hardly what they promoted in the kick off… more like “It takes a village” philosophy aka. Hillary Clinton) is no good replacement for the true gospel message. It is a false gospel. I tried to see how one might “join” the prescribed Daniel Fast… and you don’t get to square one without giving away a huge chunk of your private medical information. I could not even find 2 general overview paragraphs explaining what exactly it is, or what it is all about, or what to expect until you “join up” and give them your info. in a lengthy questionaire. Doesn’t that spell “red flag”? Try a search to see how many people have “signed on”, and sit ready to be taught by these Doctors of other faiths and philosophies.
As the saying goes: Birds of a feather flock together. It is just a great CONCERN, and it should be. I don’t understand what Piper’s motives might be for this, but I can say that Rick Warren is hype… and leading sheep into works. This is serious stuff, with serious consequences. Those who follow Piper, will see that he holds hands with Warren. Those who trust Warren might jump on the Daniel Fast bandwagon… Those who begin to receive from these Dr.s via Warren may find their “how to” guides on Eastern meditation, mind over mater and other “healing” philosophies that they are proposing for optimal health… (not even secretly- they are selling this stuff at the conferences, and you can find out their real motives with an online search) and then baby Christians find they are caught in a web of deception. So is Warren a sheep or a wolf? And why would Piper want to associate with the man?
ps: Click the Daniel Plan link in the article above for a first hand account of Rick Warren’s kick-off conference. If you have not yet read it, it is eye-opening.
Hello iwantthetruth,
In 1998 my church hired a Pastor who immediately tried running things based on the PDC principles. It didn’t work out very well. However, I don’t know if I could blame our church’s demise on this alone. PDC was only one of several ideas that our Pastor attempted to use in guiding our church’s direction. Near the end, this Pastor was trying to encourage our people to follow Bentley’s Lakeland services in 2008. Within a few months, so many people left that our church had to fold. I think the problem overall was attempting to follow man’s ideas (including PDC) instead of obeying God’s scriptures directly which is His desire.
To God’s credit and long suffering patience, He gave us every opportunity to pull out of this, but our leadership’s stubborness to keep chasing after different fads of the moment instead of His eternal truth of the Bible is what ended our church.
I’ll add to my comment above because I don’t want to be hard on Chase or any other ordinary, lovable Christian just trying to get along.
In reality, there is not much chance of the ordinary Christian figuring out what these guys are up to without a master’s degree in dissecting wordy, theological debates. They are deceitful workmen, hiding their clever heresies in technical jargon that the normal Christian has not the time to read, not the interest. Are many of you familiar with Future Grace? I didn’t think so.
So here we have Transformation of the Planet and Amillenialism hidden under the label of Missional. And we have the Law and Roman Catholic tradition veiled under some new thing called Federal Vision. Emergents are repackaging Liberalism. There are so many new chapters starting up, we can’t keep up…New Calvinists, New Evangelicals, Acts 29…And the new Piper/Warren show now going on.
Do all these conventions and conferences seem normal to you? They are places where the theological theatrics of these schemers are being played out on stage. And unfortunately, the average person is totally unaware of what is going on behind the scenes, the heresy that is driving these mergers and endorsers to glob together like little amoebas.
Has not God chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith? I think I’ll stick to the simple gospel message and the clear teachings of Christ and leave these reprobates to their complicated, confusing theological twists and turns.
I think God is more than ready to say:
Isaiah 1:12-14 12 When you come to appear before me, who has asked this of you, this trampling of my courts? 13 Stop bringing meaningless offerings! Your incense is detestable to me. New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations—I cannot bear your worthless assemblies. 14 Your New Moon feasts and your appointed festivals I hate with all my being. They have become a burden to me; I am weary of bearing them.
Chase…yes…love
…yes…Use scripture to 2 Tim 3:16,17 but you wouldn’t let him teach others along side as a leader until he is reformed, restored, or saved. Would you?
I picked up a local Christian newspaper today when I was shopping-the Piper/Warren road show continues this June with their appearances at the Southern Baptist convention in Phoenix. They are only 2 of many speakers but they were the only two I recognized. Piper also has a monthly column in this paper-being he’s a local guy. It will be very hard to take Piper seriously from now on. So sad…..
Darrell@Chase You are so quick to tell others that they should not “judge” a man and you do not know or refuse to investigate the depth of the heresy of men like Piper and Warren.
And what does Paul say to the church? Soemthing to the affect that He may not be able to judge a non-follower but he certainly can judge within the church. I’m agreeing with you… @ Chase 1Cr 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? Couldn’t be any plainer. We are to judge those who are teaching outside of the Doctrines of Jesus Christ. That would include me if I am teaching wrongly.
@Sean,
Yes I am with you brother. It’s insidious how it is taking over under the guise of christainity.
What the heck is Future Grace, Federal Vision and…the rest of the junk?
I guess I have more homework to do. K
@Randy
I agree that there are “good pastors” if by that you mean sincere. The problem is that in most congregations the pastor is hired. Because of that He/She places themself at the mercy of the employer. Whether it is the members or a board of some type it is a business.
Most are corporations as 501c3′s so their people can get any reward for giving from the IRS instead of believing God. When giving drops off it is usually the pastor who get’s the blame.
Sometimes it is just because he is boring but other times it is because she is preaching about sin that is in the camp. Often the biggest givers are playing with those sins and so leave or reduce their giving. Since the corporation is about keeping the stockholders (members) happy the pastor is placed in the position of backing off a bit or losing his job, home, insurance for his wife and kids etc.
Besides, historically, the modern position of pastor is no where in scripture. It comes from the whole Catholic/Roman pagan idea of a Priesthood and a laity. While scripture does recognize this form it is not the form Yahshua taught. Leading is not being in charge. Leading is giving practical vision for the ministry and how the congregation fits in the place where it is planted. In other words it is about how we are to be light and life in the community.
Do we care for the poor, the widows and orphans. Do we reach out to single mothers and fathers and help them to become a part of us. Do we fellowship and do we know each other in a way that allows trust so that we know we are loved by previous actions of the congregation when they need to bring some sort of correction.
BTW we all need people to love us enough to tell us when we are wrong however, if all I ever see of people and pastor are at church then I will not allow them to correct. They are being critical not loving if the only time they want to get together is to tell me I am wrong.
Oh I will still take it to Father and ask Him to confirm as he is the one who convicts.He can only work on us a bit at a time. Most of us have a LOT of stuff that doesn’t line up in our character and we would quit if He showed it all to us. So, even if the person is right it is my responsibility to seek Him as to whether this is the right time.
Sorry-got on a bit of a tirade there, modern ways of doing church are so far from what I see in His Word and I desire community and responsible love where we realize we are responsible for our brother-not just to correct, that is a very minute part, but to be Jesus for each other in the sense of walking and loving as he did.
1Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked
@ Berakah
I think that may be the Aspire Conference. Here is that link
http://www.sbcpc.net/speakers/ I think Darrin Patrick may be Emergent, not sure.
Here is a really good article from Lighthous Trails concerning the Global Peace plan with Warren and Blair….very interesting.
http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/blog/?p=6022
What would Jesus Christ our Lord say: It is written!
We read in 2 Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Fil 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Let us therefore continue stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
Finally: Matt 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Okay, guys, I did some homework–you made me do it. That Federal Vision thought or movement, well, sounded to me like a government help (goofy me) program; of course it’s not, it’s a religious movement– I am not moved to follow it.
The Daniel Fast thing, or whatever it is, I know of it as I know some who have participated in it–they lost weight, good for them; I am not interested. I’ll use portion control and just shut my mouth when I have a crazy craving and hope for the best.
I’m really weary and wary of all this weird and far out, fandangled foolishness that cloaks itself as God’s word… Christianity? No, it’s insanity.
God bless,
K
Well, Kate…I have a hard time with these convoluted theories of law and grace as they gallop around and around, up the mountainside and down through the meadow. It’s as if they cannot get past their head with their theology. So back to Rome they go because the traditions, rituals, robes and incantations, heirarchy, catechisms and mysticism makes sense to the senses.
But if they would search for truth, it is all there in the Scriptures, plain as you please:
John 5:
39Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Instead of searching the depths of Christ, and preaching Christ, they come up with terms and teachings like Future Grace, Dominionism, Missional, Federal Vision, Contemplative, Emergent, Christian Hedonism…. But flesh and blood, the mind, cannot comprehend God’s salvation without the Spirit’s revelation.
Matthew 16:
16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
They say, Christ sacrifice is enough but we need “this condition” and “that condition” and as soon as they say “but”…they have departed from the faith. When you have the revelation that Christ is enough, you will never be the same again.
That’s why I know these “theologically correct leaders” are still trying to figure it out in the mind. When the Spirit reveals the Truth to you, it is no longer necessary to prove what Christianity is. When these men exalt conditions of law, behaviour modification, social justice, and transformational process over sola Scripture, they are proving that they are self reliant. They are redefining the gospel away from simple faith and back to Catholicism. And it seems that is where Christian culture is headed.
Child like faith in what Christ said, is what we really need to get back to.
@ Chrystal
I posted above as Teresa N….just noticed. I am the same Terea………not to confuse anyone.
Hi Teresa. Oh, I am so glad you are the same Teresa, the same darling woman I have been “talking” with for months. I was wondering.
Carolyn, my dear sister–hmm– you are saying Christian culture is reverting back to Catholicism. What does that mean? Would you tell me so I may understand; I do love the Catholic people– most probably a whole bunch of us have gotten our start from that particular faith too.
You have a valid point– the holy scriptures should be enough. However, we as humans need more–that’s just how we are and that is our downfall, God just isn’t enough for those who do not understand–that’s why we must let others know that Jesus, the Son, the very precious Savior has come to set us free from ourselves, and He is enough.
I love how you spell behaviour–it must be that you are Canadian–how refreshing.
God bless you all. K
Ok….. Teresa I know, but who is Terea?
Hey Kiwi–you’ve got a tsunami heading your way from the Japan 8.9 earthquake (terrible for them), I understand–can’t catch a break by you; also the northwest/west coast in US and Canada–going to Mexico and South America, just rippling along as tsunami’s do!
Keep us posted and God’s protection for all. K
We are in trouble–our planet earth with the nuclear situation in Japan–yes, I know this may be prophetic–but we are still afraid; we are fragile as humans–we are terrified easily when our ordinary, everyday lives are challenged.
Our God is still on the throne–remember that. K
@ Carolyn
Ok I can not spell my own name LOL TERESA missed the s
Kate, you asked what I meant by: The Christian culture is reverting back to Catholicism.
What did the Reformers leave behind? Catholic practices.
Just touching the surface, here are some of them:
Mariology, praying the rosary, statues of Mary, statues of saints, saint worship, priesthood, calling their leaders Father (which was forbidden by Jesus), Nicolaitism (hierarchy of the priesthood over laity) penance, flagellation, icons, candles, confessionals, teachings of the Catholic mystics, hierarchy of priests, bishops and cardinals, the infallibility of the pope, mediation by a priest instead of Christ, scapular wearing, chanting, contemplative meditation, labyrinth walking, convents, monasteries, visions, Eucharist, flowing robes, Jesus still on a cross icons and jewelry, images of Mary carrying baby Jesus (from pagan ideas), rituals, rites for the dead, prayers for the dead, purgatory, indulgences, 7 sacraments, liturgy, mass, bells, incense, traditions, stations of the cross, works righteousness.
Slowly, the Christian culture is moving back, by degrees, to many of these practices because they are tangible sacraments of religion. They give us a feeling of relationship with God.
You will recognize many of them if you are familiar with Emergent doctrines, Federal Vision, Contemplative Mystical Practice, certain former Evangelicals turning to Mariology, Catholics together with Evangelicals, Ecumenism, Neo Orthodoxy, the Passion of Christ, to name a few.
You will notice a melding, a merging into Catholicism. Instead of walking in the Spirit, the Christian culture is being steered more and more into Orthodox practices/thinking of the Roman Catholic Church, both intentionally and unintentionally by those masterful teachers who presume to teach. We have come full circle from the Reformation, we are going back to the works of the flesh to accomplish right standing with God.
Scripture?
God says he hates the practices of the Nicolaitans.
Christ said, Behold I stand at the door and knock. If any man opens, I will come in.
God desires us to worship Him in Spirit and in Truth
There is one Mediator between Man and God…Christ Jesus
If anyone sins, we have an advocate with the Father….Jesus Christ
Christ is the end of the Law for those who believe
That is a sample of what I mean by the Christian culture reverting back to Catholicism. Rome(Babylon – spiritual wickedness in high places) has an agenda and we must stand firm on our faith alone, in Christ alone, in Scripture alone. If we don’t, we could be swept away by this truly evil, swelling tide which is being obscured by our trendy, passionate obsession with Ecumenism, Unitarianism, Globalism, Socialism and Paganism.
Hi Kate,
You know the Japanese experts at search and rescue after quakes were in Christchurch when the bid tsunami hit Japan? They’re as pagan as ever in Christchurch though, holding a Maori cermoni to “list tapus” or “curses” from the city center! The ceremony was performed by a Maori “tahunga” or “witch doctor”. The whole of Godless NZ was behind and supported the ceremony! Of course, they’re ignoring the now proven fact that the ongoing quakes are magmatic in nature, and not seizmic! There’s been a prediction for another big quake sometime around the 20th March. At the moment some parts of Christchurch are uninhabitable, so at least 10,000 homes or more wil need to be demolished. The liquifaction is so great that the ground is like quicksand and can no longer support buildings! The tsunami from Japan wasn’t too bad here. Saw an TV that California got hit bad, with all those expensive boats getting smashed together! Keep in mind in many ultra-charismatic and Pentecostal organizations we are all doomed to hell and damnation for owning a TV!! Now you can see why Jesus said to “lay up treasures in heaven”.
Addendum: I forgot one trendy passionate obsession….Dominionism, (Ammilenialism, the Church and Christ on Earth ruling today, Covenantal Theology, etc.) same old heresies of Catholicism, dressed in the newest, fashionable garb of the Federal Vision. (heresy)
Teresa – I’m glad I gave you a laugh. Mission accomplished.
@ Chrystal, Carloyn, Kate, Kiwi Dave, Sean, Eli and others.
As of today this will be my last post. Chrystal, thank you for allowing me to post on this blog that God has entrusted to you. You do great work in exposing false teachers, teachings and speaking God’s truth. I have learned so much and I am grateful to you.
However, I must be obedient to the LORD. I have focused so long on what was wrong in the church……. that it has become toxic to my soul. I spend way to much time going from blog to blog….to see who is commenting and who is saying what, than I do in the Word of God. I am addicted to the blogosphere and it has become a distraction, a snare for “me” I am only speaking for myself, no one else.
The situation with the Cross crosstalk blog, John Piper and much more has grieved me greatly and has been an eye opener for me.
I must place my focus on the Word of God and spend time getting edified by the Word of God. I must do what Phil 4 8-9 says….
8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, [1] whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. 9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.
Carolyn, Kate, I have had a great time with you goofy ladies. I love you both. Carolyn, you have came to my rescue more that once(thank you) and your comments and your knowledge of the word has blessed me greatly.
I was convicted of this from the beginning and was not obedient to the Lord’s gently rebuke, now I must be.
God bless you all and May God Almighty keep you all safe.
Chrystal , Keep on Contending for the faith. I may be back someday but I must obey my LORD……………… God bless.
@Crystal, I have send you an email about the way Elijahlist uses the disaster in Japan to proof Kim Clement is a ‘real prophet’ and how they ask for money so they can prophecy.
It is sickening.
Hello Teresa,
You may not come back to read this, but if you do, I want to let you know how much I have appreciated the wisdom that you (and the others you have listed) have shared in the past few months. Thanks for that and for your example of obedience to the Lord expressed in your post here. I am praying that He will richly bless you and your family.
Hi Teresa,
I know I don’t post much these days but I wanted to say thank you for your kindness and willingness to share the wisdom that the Lord has blessed you with. I pray that He will continue to bless you and your family as well. Please email me anytime: charity.rash@yahoo.com
Teresa, my dear. You will be profoundly missed!!!! But you should go where the Spirit is leading you, sister and we will meet again soon. Thank you for the kind words… Blessings to you and your family and my prayers are with you, C
Hi all! Well, quite a scene these last few days.
Teresa, one day, you will say hi again. Until then, God bless and talk to you soon. I will miss you and love you too. You are a good woman and I agree with what you say as to Phil. 4: 8-9– thanks for the Godly reminder.
She has a point–we cannot focus on the shenanagins; being here on this blog is an eye opener indeed. The blogosphere can sometimes be a problem. It’s wonderful to share God’s word amongst one other and remember to build one another up in love as we contend for the faith.
Carolyn, that was a mouthful; scary stuff. Ms. Teresa is is right, though, I guess sometimes we are goofy, thank God!
Kiwi–glad you’re okay. Wow! Not good for NZ, I’m so sorry. Hmm, very interesting about the aboriginal ceremonies; thanks for the info. Yes, I know some Christian denominations don’t watch TV, what can I say.
Let us all pray for our neighbors in Japan, they are in a catastrophic situation which is effecting us all; I am very, very sad for them.
You’re right Chrystal, as to whom we donate, we must be aware and be very careful.
God’s best… K
“Would Mr. Sproul have Mr. Piper at his conference in Florida on March 24th as currently planned, if he still plans to yoke with Warren?”
Sproul already participated in DG 2010 in October with Warren on the roster, as did all those other guys. Burk Parsons praised RW for such a great talk, in the panel immediately after RW’s video debate. So did Piper. Piper went on Christianity Today after the DG 2010 conference and said RW had been slandered by his critics.
Incidentally, this April DG 2011 at Saddleback was announced back then by RW in his talk at DG Oct 2010. So this isn’t super *new* news.
And Saddleback still has no mention of DG 2011 on their site. It’s only about 6 weeks out, what’s with that?
Saddleback and Warren need this conference. Only good can come out of this. Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater just yet.