Should Fallen Pastors Be Restored?

This is from Dr. John MacArthur:

Should Fallen Pastors Be Restored?

It has always saddened me over the years as I’ve watched church leaders bring a reproach on the church of Jesus Christ. What’s shocking to me is how frequently Christian leaders sin grossly, then step back into leadership almost as soon as the publicity dies away.

Some time ago I received a CD that disturbed me greatly. It was a recording of the recommissioning service of a pastor who had made national news by confessing to an adulterous affair. After little more than a year of “counseling and rehabilitation,” this man was returning to public ministry with his church’s blessing.

That is happening everywhere. Restoration teams–equipped with manuals to instruct the church on how to reinstate their fallen pastor–wait like tow-truck drivers on the side of the highway, anticipating the next leadership “accident”. Our church has received inquiries wondering if we have written guidelines or a workbook to help restore fallen pastors to leadership. Many no doubt expect that a church the size of ours would have a systematic rehabilitation program for sinning leaders.

Gross sin among Christian leaders is a signal that something is seriously wrong with the church. But an even greater problem is the lowering of standards to accommodate a leader’s sin. That the church is so eager to bring these men back into leadership is a symptom of rottenness at the core.

Some have claimed that a leader’s failure makes him more effective in shepherding fallen people. That is ludicrous. Should we drag the bottom of sin’s cesspool for the most heinous sinners to lead the church? Are they better able to understand the sinner? Certainly not! Our pattern for ministry is the sinless Son of God. The church is to be like Him and her leaders are to be our models of Christlikeness.

We must recognize that leadership in the church cannot be regarded lightly. The foremost requirement of a church leader is that he be above reproach (1 Timothy 3:2, 10; Titus 1:7). That is a difficult prerequisite, and not everyone can meet it.

Continue reading…

This entry was posted in Biblical Truth and tagged , , . Bookmark the permalink.

82 Responses to Should Fallen Pastors Be Restored?

  1. Berean Gal says:

    You only have one shot at integrity, and ministers are held
    to much higher standard in the Bible. I believe that they can
    be forgiven, but should not be restored.

  2. Doug says:

    Thank you for posting this, Chrystal. In the article Dr. MacArthur mentions not “shooting the wounded”. Just last night at work I listened to Chuck Girard’s song, “Don’t Shoot The Wounded”.
    We do no pastor any favors by re-instating him to leadership in a church. As Dr. MacArthur said in the article, “Shouldn’t we be eager to restore our fallen brethren? To fellowship, yes. But not to leadership. It is not an act of love to return a disqualified man to public ministry; it is an act of disobedience.”
    Human nature, not Godly nature, is what we fight against every day; a pastor who is quickly restored to ministry leadership will find the next sin easier to rationalize as there didn’t seem to be lasting consequences to his ‘fall’. What we ‘do’ whatever we think we can get away with; a congregation may reinstate, but you can’t play games with God, Who weighs the motives of our hearts.
    A pastor who falls should not seek restoration to leadership. Fellowship-absolutely!
    But not leadership.

  3. short answer : no to being a pastor again yes to repentance and fellowship.

  4. David Green says:

    When those doing the restoring are in grave sin themselves, nothing changes anyway.

  5. Kiwi Dave says:

    Such a pastor must be forgiven and counselled, but never restored to the ministy as a Pastor. He has betrayed the trust of the fellowship and those he is supposed to be leading. The denomination/organization doesn’t matter as it’s happenning everywhere. The Pastor is supposed to serve and protect the flock, not his own lusts, be it money, adultery, or pride. A simple analogy is this – after his imeachment, was President Richard Nixon restored back to the White House?

  6. Beracah says:

    Repentance is key. Without it, there can be no restoration of any kind. My former pastor wanted to reconcile after he was fired. Yet, he would not admit any wrongdoing. Basically, he knew he was out of a job, and the money was more important to him than forgiveness and repentance. If a grown man who preached many times on this subject, can’t humble himself, step away from his pride (and his controlling, jezebel wife….don’t get me started on that!) and do the right thing, then God help him. I cannot. I prayed for him\them for a while. But my prayers turned to asking God to drive him\them to their knees, to break him\them to move him\them to repentance. It hasn’t happened yet but he’s started another church.

  7. Rev's. Kate & Rich M. says:

    You may not care for my answer, I respest John MacArthur highly and his opinions are taken seriously by me, and his teachings are without comparison…but he is not God.
    Kate

  8. Teresa says:

    @Kate
    Can you please elaborate as to why you say; But he not God. Why do you say that?

    With all do respect to you K, I must disagree with your statement. I listen to John MacArthur everyday and I have never gotten the impression that he thinks he is God, never.
    I am curious as to why you would say that.

  9. Mickey Merrie says:

    So…Kate! What are you saying regarding the “restoring of a fallen pastor?”
    Sounds like there might be a grey area in your grey matter?!?! Are there degrees of falling?
    Just asking for your usual clarity of thought.

  10. jude newman says:

    Kate, am I missing something. Did someone declare John MacArthur God. I think why you are so upset is if the Rev. in front of your name is anything to go by you don’t believe all that God says anyway. I am sure you would say they can and should be restored to pastor. If I’m wrong I’m sincerely repent. Its just that these sorts of things seem to all get gathered together by the same people who think its ok to twist Scripture

  11. annunk says:

    I personally know not one but two pastors who both had adulterous affairs. Both of them were so gifted in their preaching and teaching. Both of them went back to the pulpit after ever so brief amounts of time – still highly gifted in their teaching & preaching ability. God’s gifts, after all, are without repentence.

    But I don’t know any scriptures to support their returning to the pulpit. I think of their actions – their adulterous actions, which were abominable “witnesses”. Then to have them “back in the saddle” so to speak, well, it makes to office of pastor/teacher seem like a very insignificant and small thing. Almost as if, “Hey, everyone makes mistakes – no biggee.” The church, the body of Christ, should be a notch above ‘the regular world’. Not perfect, no – forgiven, yes, but with godly integrity. Believers should never look upon sin lightly – and pastors who commit such grievous sins should still serve the Lord, and with gladness! but not behind the pulpit.

  12. Mickey Merrie says:

    As an addendum…If your church treasurer embezzles money from the missions fund, should he be restored, and not prosecuted? How about the couple who work the nursery…caught taking pictures of children in their care?…Restored?
    Parent on a youth trip as chaperone, found with porno on his hotel bill, no kids involved,…yet…restore him?
    Just saying…

  13. Teresa says:

    There are very few well known preacher’s on TV, radio or else where who have not grossly sinned, as John MacArthur said. I do not know this but I would think he was Todd Bentley (who is still living in adultery and preaching) Aimee Semple McPherson (who staged her death ran off with a married man to Mexico committed adultery and OD on drugs) There was some controversy with Katherine Kuhlman as well. Jim Baker(now preaching again) Jimmie Swaggart (now preaching again) John Hagee (committed adultery in 1975 with Diane Casto, whom he is now married to, still preaching) Charles Stanley (Divorced not remarried) Ted Haggard (drug and homosexuality) Paul Cain ( alcoholic and homosexuality) Zachary Timms (adultery and divorce) Paula white (divorce 2 times, still preaching) Benny Hinn (still preaching) Juanita Bynum ( divorce, still preaching) we can add Marcus Lamb (adultery) This is just to name a few, the list goes on.

    John MarArthur is one of the most scripturally straight forward dead on preachers I know. He does not deviate from the word of God and I have never know him to compromise.

    I pray that more biblically sound preachers will start speaking up for the truth of God’s word and contending for the faith. My two cents………………

    Something is seriously wrong. Just in

  14. Teresa says:

    I do not know this but I would think it was Todd Bentley he was referring to “sorry I mess that up”

  15. Teresa says:

    Posting comment first thing is the morning without coffee is not a good ides.

    I did not finish my last sentence.

    Something is seriously wrong….. Just in the WOF/NAR movement’s, there are way to many scandal’s and adultery. In the aftermath of the scandal’s/adultery, there is no accountability and they are allowed to continue to preach, going against the word of God.

    Biblical church discipline is important and it is a must!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I say right on John MacArthur………………Have a wonderful day and God bless!

  16. Mike A says:

    A few questions:

    David was a spiritual leader in Israel as well as king and he committed murder and adultery – but was he truly a spiritual leader as we view today? Also, what exactly is Paul referring to in Romans 7?

    What about leaders, but not pastors? An example would be a Sunday School teacher, a musician, or even a receptionist/secretary. If one of them falls into sin, are they disqualified from serving?

    And I guess we should talk about what sort of sin qualifies as worthy to remove from leadership. Obviously sexual sin would, but what else?

    I have my thoughts, but I will hold onto them for now :)

  17. Eli says:

    Kate, I too am confused by your answer. My first thought was that an imposter is posting under your name, your response is out of character. Also, something I’ve wanted to ask for a while. Are you an ordained minister, or is “Rev Kate” just a “handle” (to use the old CB lingo). Just curious.

  18. Kris says:

    My understanding of the article is that the gross sin referred to is sexual sin. What other sins qualify to remove pastors from leadership?

  19. ruthsongs says:

    To me it is the broken trust that gets to the core of the issue. If a leader falls into habitual rebelliousness, (That’s why the context is so often adultery. It is a pattern of willfull sin. Not just a mistake) if the people are living in true fellowship, there are going to be at least some who feel they have been betrayed and cannot trust this person in the way they used to. This kind of thing (adultery) only happens because the leader in question is leading a double life. They have broken trust. To reinstate this person with no regard to the flock is arrogant.

    If the people he (I’m just gonna say ‘he’) is around feel he can once again be trusted, then I suppose they could restore him to some kind of leadership role they all agree he is trustworthy in. But really, this isn’t how it usually takes place. Usually someBODY, or maybe two or three, decide the leader is restored and pop him back into leadership. The sheeple then just suppose it’s ok, even if in their hearts they are leery of trusting this person.

    I’ve never seen any of these public cases look like it was any kind of body decision among equals, among brothers. It’s just the top level guys that call the shots. Or as someone noted the leader in question just goes where no one knows him and starts a new church. In my own little protected life I have seen this happen four times.

    MacArthur is at least right in that something is broken.

  20. Rev's. Kate & Rich M. says:

    Hi guys, good afternoon and good to hear from you. Why’re ya yellin’ at me? :)

    Thanks for the responses– Brother John MacArthur is brilliant and so are his teachings; his heart is truly in pursuit of God, it’s apparent. I said that.

    I know you all know he is not God. I was not implying you thought so–remember no teacher is above reproach, however.

    There’s wisdom, let’s apply it; forgiveness, let’s grant it–God does; and grace which is without merit, and mercy–a true, real repentance (we will know them by their fruit) and correction on the offenders part could and may constitute a restoration to office.

    So, I suppose if, from what I am reading, a leader, congregant; whether pastor, teacher, musician, choral member, deacon, on and on, makes a mistake/sins (what sin specifically?) boot ‘em out, take them in the back and tar and feather ‘em and while we’re at it, put ‘em in the stocks in the town square!

    I’ll keep my stone in my pocket.

    That’s it in a nutshell–and as long as the “nuts” (need I say who they are–you know ‘em) stay in their shell, and out of ministry, I think it’ll be okay. K

  21. Brandon says:

    Something I’ve noticed is that if you were to run a fine-tooth comb throught the ministries of pastors who commit gross sins, in most cases (not all) you will find that they probably were not suitable for ministry in the first place. It seems that removing them from their position in the first place wasn’t even about discipline, but to make it appear that things were being handled. As soon as things cool off, right back in the saddle they go, regardless of whether their has been true reconciliation and repentance!

    On the other hand, when a true man of God sins and is confronted for that sin, he will show humility and contrition in keeping with repentance. For such a one there must be forgiveness in Jesus Christ. Discipline cannot be neglected, however, and the pastor, if he is truly a man of God, he will submit to it wholly. I look at the example of King David, who sinned greivously against the Lord, committing adultery, murder and lying, yet he repented and was forgiven. This did not mean there were no consequences or discipline. There were extremely severe consequences, but David was to “restored” to the position of King (in a figure of speech sort of way).

    Sadly, we are all suceptable to sin, some of u more so than others and to some sins more so than others, but that is the perfect opportunity to let the awesome power of God, which is the Gospel, the good news of forgiveness of sins for Christ’s sake, to shine in brighter than ever. In our weakness, HE is strong. Regardless of whether a pastor who has sinned greivously to the point of being removed from his office will ever be restored again, the perfect opportunity to preach the Gospel, especially to that fallen pastor, should be taken immediately.

    Of course, if the ex-pastor is unrepentant, then there is nothing to give them other than a whopping dose of law to show them just how much trouble they are in with God till they humble themselves. It’s not that they are not forgiven before humility and repentance, but until they can acknowledge their sins and that they are in need of said forgiveness, they will never be able to truly receive it, for they think in their minds that they do not need it.

    I believe that a pastor who is restored after going through the correct proccesses, and after having experienced the radical forgiveness of God’s grace and mercy, will only be stronger for their weakness. When we look at Paul we see a man who was a firestorm, destroying the early Church, but when he was shown radical grace, when God granted him repentance (a change of mind), and regenerated him, just look at what he did for the early Church and what continues to take place today because of Him!

    1 Corinthians 15:9-10
    9 For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me.

  22. Brandon says:

    ***Correction***
    “…some of ‘u’ more so than others and to some sins more so than others…”
    From the 3rd paragraph should read:
    “…some of ‘us’ more so than others and to some sins more so than others…”

    Yeah, I’m not that arrogant. :-)

  23. Rev's. Kate & Rich M. says:

    Hi Eli,

    I just posted a response a short while ago–I’m sure it’ll be on soon. I’m wondering as to how you mean my response is out of character. Let me know and I’ll try to address it, ok?

    This may answer some questions: What’s happening here, is that I am becoming more and more cautious and wary of churches and ministries–I am at the point that I don’t care who they are or who they say they are, I am questioning and I will question everything: love, grace, mercy, tolerance or the lack of it, teachings and doctrines and the neverending junk I am seeing that is being pawned-off as God’s word– I have to, I am compelled, and if I’m stepping on some toes or sounding offensive, forgive me, that is not my intent; I’ve got to get to the truth!

    Call it a quest.

    You can go to the August 28, 2010 post, “Evangelicals and Glenn Beck”, and you’ll see my answer to your question–the original answer to Pastor Ken Silva’s similar question.

    Funny that you say “handle”, because my husband drove over the road many years ago.

    Talk to you soon and as always God’s best,
    Kate

    PS–Mickey M, you’re sounding mighty cranky today in your response and in your addendum, is that what you think of me, that hurts me, my brother. K

  24. Berakah says:

    Rev K-it’s nice to see you are not drinking the “kool aid” too handed out in churches everywhere. We are to test the spirits in everything-God bless you!!!!

  25. Craig says:

    @ annunk:

    This is not to pick on you; but, I noticed your use of the phrase, “the gifts and callings are without repentence” which, is a Scripture that’s predominately used to excuse failed “prophecies,” fallen leaders, etc. I’m assuming by your context that this was meant tongue in cheek; but, just in case, I wanted to point out that this verse — Romans 11:29 — is about the remant Israel which will be saved at the end. I say this only for other readers who may not understand this or have had this particular verse drilled into them much like the “touch not mine anointed” nonsense.

    @Teresa:

    In your list you mentioned “Charles Stanley (Divorced not remarried).” From what I know the divorce was not something Charles Stanley wanted; however, he had no choice in the matter. If anyone wants to divorce in the US (as far as I know this includes all states), they can well get one; and, it was his former wife who filed, not Charles. My understanding is that Stanley did announce to his congregation that he was going to step down because of the divorce yet his congregation wanted him to stay. If my understanding on this is correct, I see no reason why Stanley should not be in the pulpit. And to place his name amongst the others in that list is not very fair since, as far as I know, Stanley stayed true to his marriage covenant. That is, unless you have any evidence to the contrary.

  26. WatEenZooitje says:

    The state of modern Christianity is very sad. Especially within the ultracharismatic movements like WoF/NAR. It is all a very humanistic/hedonistic thing with a Christian sauce to cover it up. The sad thing is that a lot of these preachers are examples, sometimes even idols, for a lot of Christians in these areas. There is no accountability at all, sins are referred as mistakes, and because of experiences, ‘prophecies’, ‘revivals’, ‘signs and wonders’, ‘heavenly portals’ etc. etc. are so much more important than God’s Word, their followers are not sharp at all in descerning whether things are SIN or not. What seems logical to qualify certain things as sin and inappopriate by Bible-based Christians (adultery, fornication, prideful attitude etc.), are not shared by these ‘Powerhouse’ Christians and followers. They just follow their own life, lusts, ego and they think they can get away with it. What they don’t know is that they set precedents for their irresponsible behaviour. Look at Todd Bentley. He left his wife, married his mistress and now the two of them are back in ‘ministry’ within a year after it came out, via a so called restoration process lead by a controversial masonic-influenced christian leader. My question: Did Rick Joyner really have this authority to ‘restore’ Todd Bentley? And what example do you make. I can imagine that a follower of this movement would say: “Well, my Christian hero sinned but is now back in business. Maybe I can also leave my, not so attractive wife/husband, get an other person to become my next spouse and then win the world for Jesus, and just continue to be a pastor, worship leader, christian artist etc.” What part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the God of Israel would you present then? I can imagine the cynical attitude which non-believers have towards Christians when you present Jesus Sacrifice and Message like this. I can’t blame them if they are not taking Christians serious anymore. But there is a time coming that these ‘Christians’ or ‘Christian Movements’ are forced to live according to God’s Word. But the problem for them will be: “Do they know the real Spirit of the Bible or was it just only the good parts to please their own self, thus keeping out SIN as something that displeases God?”

  27. Mickey Merrie says:

    Cranky? No Kate, I am not cranky, nor am I upset with you. I certainly did not mean to offend or hurt you either. What I was doing was asking you to respond to a set of questions/examples. It was your post that was, frankly, puzzling to say the least, and certainly could seem cranky, in, an of, itself.
    It appeared to several folks, not just me, that your nerve was struck, and that you, have different levels of grace when it comes to pastors.
    I don’t claim to be “called in to a ministry” “by God” and lead by Him, and at the same time want ‘special treatment’ when I am in willful rebellion. I just am a steward of folks money…averaging a double digit return for them year after year, and take that, my relationship, and my marriage quite seriously….all are vows I do uphold by the grace of God, will not let down my guard, and IF I failed would not expect nor seek restoration, so that the happy times would return. Just a different way of looking at things, thanks to Jesus being Lord in my life.

    Nearly every book in the bible WARNS me of religious leaders, and I call no man Reverend…

  28. Teresa says:

    @ Kate
    First I want to say I love you and respect you, and you make me laugh. I was surprised by you comment and I would like to say do not over react to this…………………you said; So, I suppose if, from what I am reading, a leader, congregant; whether pastor, teacher, musician, choral member, deacon, on and on, makes a mistake/sins (what sin specifically?) boot ‘em out, take them in the back and tar and feather ‘em and while we’re at it, put ‘em in the stocks in the town square!

    John M is asking whether or not fallen pastor’s should be restored. The bible is very clear on the requirements for pastor’s and deacon’s. I understand what you are saying but we must go to the word of God to see what God has to say about it.
    He was not talking about choir member’s and so forth. Church discipline and accountability is very important, and we have not seen to much of this in recent years with all the scandal’s.

  29. Carolyn says:

    Posting from Taiwan…just returned from a tour of Nantan on the back of my daughter’s scooter, my hair all askew…
    Brandon…great post. I agree with you. And I’m so glad you didn’t leave us scratching our heads over the “u”
    When we consider the sinfulness of man, we only have to read the first few chapters of Genesis and see how the patriarchs were quite wretched in their unbelief, ie Abraham lying about Sarah being his sister and Lot offering his daughters to the men of Sodom…in light of some of the things that went on back there, our sins seem quite civilized (that’s a joke).
    But truly, the whole idea of these leaders being restored begs the question…restored to what? If they are being restored to leading men to Christ, pointing to the way of salvation, fellowship with believers or study of the Word…why not?
    But on the other hand, what has today’s idolatry of “leadership worship” to do with Christianity? People love their tv personalities and Christian entertainers; they love their popes (Catholic or Protestant), they love their politically minded, cause oriented, saavy, title bearing worldlings who they can “identify” with. And who cares if they are restored? They were an idol to begin with and they will still be an idol when they are restored to their apostate leadership position.
    The ordinary Christian who abides in the Word has only one leader. Christ. And we are all equal in him. Paul did not want people following him. He wanted to preach the gospel. Period.
    Let’s all be about our Father’s business!

  30. Sean says:

    I think that I am 99% in agreement with MacArthur. He’s absolutely right in the concern over the so-called “restorations” that were just showcase excuses to get unworthy preachers back into leadership. He’s also absolutely right about taking behavior in leadership extremely seriously.

    However, I don’t think I would go as far as to say that people can never be restored into leadership.

    Just my $0.02.

  31. ruthsongs says:

    Is David even applicable to the case of new testament believers and new testament church? He was part of a monarchy – king until death- that wasn’t even God’s first choice for how the Israelites should be led.

    He was an example of repentance and forgiveness, yes. But i don’t really see how his King office is the same as NT church.

  32. Bud Press says:

    Kate wrote:

    “You may not care for my answer, I respest John MacArthur highly and his opinions are taken seriously by me, and his teachings are without comparison…but he is not God.”

    You state that you highly respect John MacArthur, take his opinions seriously, and believe MacArthur’s teachings are “without comparison”.. Then, by informing everyone that MacArthur “is not God,” you strongly imply that someone on this blog has suggested or believes that MacArthur is “God”.

    You are right, Kate, I don’t care for your answer, and I refuse to allow you to skate your way out of this one.

    So, you consider John MacArthur’s teachings “without comparison”. No doubt that MacArthur would vehemently disagree with you, as does Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

    News Flash: What Jesus said and taught is without comparison. And, what the Holy Spirit inspired the authors of the Bible to write is without comparison. Every word that Jesus uttered was and is perfect. The words from the Holy Spirit to the authors of the Bible were and are perfect.

    God’s written word is exclusive and beyond comparison, and it is to be trusted over and above what John MacArthur teaches, I teach, and you teach.

    Let us not forget that Christians are under the Scriptural command to: test all things (1 Thessalonians 5:21; 1 John 4:1); preach the word (2 Timothy 4:1-2); guard and warn fellow Christians (Acts 20:27-31); boldly defend the faith (1 Timothy 6:12; Jude 3); expose the unfruitful works of darkness (Ephesians 5:11-12; 2 Corinthians 4:4); and tell the truth in love (Ephesians 4:14-15).

    No Christian–regardless of their position within the body of Christ–is exclusive to sin and immune to scrutiny. No Christian’s teachings are “without comparison,” most especially when compared to the Bible.

    Finally, Kate, referring to John MacArthur in an above post, you stated, “I know you all know he is not God. I was not implying you thought so–remember no teacher is above reproach, however.”

    Then why, Kate, did you state that John MacArthur “is not God” in the first place?

    Bud Press

  33. Teresa says:

    @ Craig

    Yes, you are correct. I was trying to make a point and I should have been more specific and clarified that about Charles Stanley because I do not put Him in the same class with the other people, forgive me. Thank you for responding to that in correction to me.

  34. Teresa says:

    @ Bud
    You said: Then why, Kate, did you state that John MacArthur “is not God” in the first place?

    @ Kate I asked you the same question, please answer.

  35. Kiwi Dave says:

    I agree with what Ruthsongs said. This is a different dispensation, and we are no longer in the Old Testament. We all know there’s a long list of qualities that a Pastor or Bishop must have. I also agree with what Brandon said. It’s very likely that the “Pastor” was not suited to that position or called by God, but elected by the elders of whatever “church” he was pastor of.

    If a man or woman isn’t called by God to be a Pastor or church leader, and they are placed in that position, they will be unprepared and have excess baggage/sin that hasn’t been dealth with or they haven’t repented of. The sin is still in their hearts when they take on the position, and sure enough they fall into temptation, and get caught. That’s not to say they’re “bad people” or “awful sinners”. We are all sinners, and the only thing that keeps us is the grace of God. As the Apostle Paul said:

    “For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that [it is] good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.” Romans 7: 14 – 25 KJV

    Of course, that was written to the true church. The list of “fallen Pastors” above is a “who’s who” of mainly wealthy heretics. I still really enjoy Jimmy Swaggart’s music and I think that was his calling, not being a Pastor. (IMHO)

  36. Mickey Merrie says:

    Good morning, Kate!
    Now that you have been called to task for your comment, felt hurt, maybe angry, let me be the first to say… Take the rebuke for what it is, a wake-up call to a position you had, that should now be apparent to you as off base, conform yourself to the Word in this case, and be restored.
    Words in print…yours, mine, Bud Post’s can seem more harsh then when actually said in person. But they were said in genuine concern for your initial response, which probably revealed more about you then realized was there. All comments were meant as a wake-up call for you out of genuine concern for some feeling you had relative to an office you promote with your handle. A minister is a function, not an office…an undershepherd listening intently to the Shepherd, in total submission. Most today love the pre-emminence that can happen in American pastor worship, when in reality, when you look at the lives of Timothy for example, there is no elevation, simply sacrificial function.
    Kate, we ALL need these wake up calls/rebukes, as we contend for our faith, and work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. This is iron sharpening iron.
    Please accept my welcome back as a sister in the Lord. Put the feelings behind and continue your growth in the Lord. Question everything any man teaches, by the Word, in context, take no accepted teaching as gospel, except the gospel in context as revealed by the Holy Spirit, always testing the spirits.
    American churchianity is extremely sick, and the heart of America is fatally wounded because of it. American pastors should be leading the charge to repent and return for our wicked religious ways, holding themselves accountable first then the church, then the nation. This is not happening…Repentance is absent from their messages…except when it is “Please forgive me for my agregious self indulging sins, I want to be restored to my office with all it’s benefits.”
    How we handle the little things tells how we will handle the larger things, right!
    We would all do well to count everything in our past as dung, return to our seats at His feet/our first Love and learn from Him through His appointed way, the Word in context, taught by the Holy Spirit, and when blessed to have a godly minister to guide us be thankful, yet NEVER elevate a man, rather test EVERYTHING by the Word.
    The Word says “above reproach,” not above accountability. The deeds of the Nicolaitans Jesus hates.

  37. Rev's. Kate & Rich M. says:

    Bud! What’s up? You must have been up pretty late to post this one.

    You refuse not to allow me to skate out of this one? I’m not going to skate… I’ll run… because you can become really scary at times, and frankly you’re scaring me right now.

    New flash? Wow, thanks for the heads-up on God’s word and Him not having comparison.

    Let me rephrase it: John Mac Arthur’s teachings supercede most of the jerks (that’s the correct term) who pretend to be men and women of God!

    Why did I state what I did, Bud? Because there is no one who teaches biblical perfection, by any means–that’s all, and none is above reproach.

    I should not become an “issue” on this site and looking into chopping my head off isn’t fair, I am your sister. Where is your respect?

    Now, we are family and like all families we have our differences and opinions, yes?

    Bud, if your purpose is to be seen as a formidable opponent–however, I don’t believe that is your intent– you have certainly accomplished that one to me.

    This is an open forum which allows everyone from many diverse nations, religions and cultures, thoughts; a place where we can come together and disagree or agree in love and just “be”–argue with yourself as I will not argue– I’ve said it many times on this blog.

    I am not here to attack or be attacked and Bud, my friend, you need to learn how to talk to women and not be so darned legalistic in so much…. you become… scary!

    I love you in Christ and I’m offering you an olive branch; as Sister Carolyn said, let’s all be about our Father’s business!
    K :)

  38. Craig says:

    Terersa,

    Thanks for your response. I do respect Charles Stanley as I believe he’s one of the few espousing Truth. However, just like MacArthur I disagree on some theological points as I do every teacher I’ve encountered; and, I expect most, if not all, will diverge from some of my views on the non-essentials as I do not pretend to have the corner on Truth myself.

  39. IWTT says:

    1st what do the scriptures say about unfaithfulness/adultry?
    2nd what do the scriptures say about one in leadership, what are the qualifications?
    3rd what do the scriotures say about restoration?
    4th what do the scriptures say about a leader and restoration? are they to go back in leadership?

  40. Darrel says:

    Still haven’t answered the question, have you Rev. Kate?

  41. Teresa says:

    @ Craig

    I respect Charles Stanley as well. I listen to him at 9:30 every morning on VCY America. I will make sure I clarify when I write something like that i the future.

    I agree with you comment 100% May the LORD Bless you Craig, thanks for you kindness.

  42. Lavrai says:

    Hello, everyone.

    This is an interesting subject considering the day and age of many Christian leaders’ hypocritical ways coming to light.

    I don’t see how the Holy Scriptures teach that a pastor who sins is permanently disqualified from every being placed in a leadership position again. Of course he/she should be forgiven where there is true repentance and regeneration and evidence of such. But who is to say GOD is done with that person when it comes to him/her shepherding HIS flock?

    Of course Peter was not in a leadership position until Pentecost, but he was given the call after the LORD’s resurrection (John 21)… after he had denied even knowing the same Jesus he had confessed as the Christ.

    Another commenter mentioned King David — whose lies cost several Levites their lives, whose lust lead to adultery and murder and whose short temper might have cost many more lives (the matter of Nabal and Abigail) — didn’t GOD make HIS covenant with David AFTER these things?

    And look at foolish King Nebuchadnezzar. No, he was not a follower of the LORD MOST HIGH but he was an instrument of the LORD used to chastise HIS people. GOD taught him a great lesson in humility… and then restored him, allowing him to leave a legacy.

    All I am saying is, that restoration and how the people of GOD are used for the work of HIS Kingdom is up to GOD. It is not impossible nor un-Biblical for, after GOD’s own determined time, to take a leader once fallen and put him/her to use for the Kingdom once again in a leadership position.

  43. Bud Press says:

    Kate:

    If you think my comments are “scary,” you should see the reaction I get when I step out in public.

    Dogs tuck their tails and run for the hills. Cats screech and climb trees. Adults and children scream and flee for their lives. Dark clouds form in the sky. The mere mention of my name strikes fear into the hearts of those who have crossed my path.

    Kate, if you really believe that I am “scary” (and not being sensationalistic), then you will believe paragraph #2 of this post.

    By the way, thank you for rephrasing your comments on John MacArthur.

    Bud Press

  44. brooklyn Khloe' says:

    New to this site and new to posting,tips for doing this in the proper manner would be appreciated. Just curious,”pastor kate” your postings seem harsh ,then you accuse others of being “scary”. Not to debate the female pastor thing,but you lose cred in my mind with that title. Does that make me scary?

  45. Kiwi Dave says:

    Everyone appears to be skipping over this very important paragraph from John MacArthur:

    “That is happening everywhere. Restoration teams–equipped with manuals to instruct the church on how to reinstate their fallen pastor–wait like tow-truck drivers on the side of the highway, anticipating the next leadership “accident”. Our church has received inquiries wondering if we have written guidelines or a workbook to help restore fallen pastors to leadership. Many no doubt expect that a church the size of ours would have a systematic rehabilitation program for sinning leaders.”

    There appears to be a new “offshoot” or “business” devoted totally to the resoration of fallen pastors! I’m certain the “restoraton teams” don’t come cheap either! It’s as if modern churches are now so ungodly that they totally accept a pastor that sins and falls in public disgrace (taking the Name of Our Lord Jesus with them) as “the norm” and “to be expected as an eventuality”. Hence the restoration teams to “put things right”. Of course, that approach is completely contrary to the Scriptures:

    “What shall we then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?” Romans 6: 1&2 KJV

  46. Teresa says:

    My husband and I came out of a BIG charismatic church in West Virginia several years ago.
    We gave money in good faith, thousands of dollars to a building fund to help build on to the church.
    After we moved to Wisconsin, we founds out this past summer that the “guy” that was over the finance department (He was the only one over that department, no one to be accountable to) was embezzling money, lots of money, our money for the church funds. I have not asked, I know he is still working at the church but doing what I do not know.

    My question is this? Do you restore him back to that position or does this disqualified as over seerer of the Church funds by his dishonesty, his stealing, his crime (which could send him to jail) and for his sin.

    We all know there are biblical qualification for pastors, teachers, elders and deacons. So, we have scriptures that qualifies a man to be pastor. What is the flip side of the scriptures that would “disqualify a pastor”

    Let me make it simple

    1 Tim 3: 1-7 Pastor, teachers, elders, and deacons qualifications

    Above Reproach – An accusation of sin won’t stick to him.

    Husband of One Wife – He must be faithful to his wife. He adores his wife and does not flirt with other women.

    Self-Control – He is the master of his behavior. His behavior does not control him.

    Lives Wisely – He makes good choices.

    Has a Good Reputation – People at church and in the community think highly of him.

    He is respected.

    Hospitable – His home is open to others.

    He Can Teach – He has gifted insight into the scripture and communicates well those insights to others.

    Not Addicted to Wine – He never gets drunk or over-indulges in alcohol.

    Not Violent – He resolves conflict peacefully.

    Gentle – His manner and words are not abrasive …he has a good “bed side manner.”

    Loves Peace – Is someone who works toward peace in every relationship he encounters.

    Does Not Love Money – He is not consumed with his retirement fund or lavish life styles.

    Manages His Home Well – His family and home are in order, not in chaos. His children are polite and respectful. His finances are in order.

    Not a New Christian – He has proven experience as a faithful follower of Jesus.

    Titus 1 6-9 More Pastor, teacher, elders, deacons qualifications

    His children must be believers who are not wild or rebellious

    Not Arrogant – He must be humble, thinking of others first. He has a servant’s heart.

    Not Quick-Tempered – His anger does not flare up at the least provocation.

    A Strong and Steadfast Belief – A conviction in the gospel that does not waver.

    Does Adultery, homosexuality, pornography, child molestations, embezzlement, etc……… Do these grave sin’s disqualify them…………………….

    One more question????????????????

    Someone starts coming to your church and they want to become a member. They appear to bear good fruit and give a good account of their salvation and so forth.
    They want to get involved in ministry, say they ask to work in the nursery or around small children.
    The church lets them work in the nursery and/or around the small children. Several years pass, something happens they hurt a child, molest a child. The church finds out this has been happening to other children over the last several years. The church also find out this person is a pedophile, has a past of molesting small child. Does this grave sin disqualify this person or should the church restore them and then put them back into that position in the nursery or what have you.

    To me that question is a no brainer……………………

    Forgiveness is granted……….Trust is earned………….

  47. Rev's. Kate & Rich M. says:

    Mr. Darrel, good morning. I had hoped to have cleared everything up by now. Apparently there’s still some question as to, “The Question”!

    S0, what is the question again, Mr. Darrel? Refresh my memory, please, there are a few.

    Forgive me, I may be out of line, and I wouldn’t want you to misinterpret anything I am saying– you sound combative and smart-alecky to me today, and just plum ready to start a brawl!

    Why not take that rambunctious energy and wipe out some of the wolves doctrines?

    Permit me to refresh your memory, if you would: I will not debate, argue or fight.

    Now, God’s best to you, my precious brother, and prepare, you and your family, for a wonderful Christmas holiday that is coming up–and let the peace of God which passes all understanding be in your heart…

    In His love,
    Kate

  48. Rev's. Kate & Rich M. says:

    Hi Bud–you are correct on #2; no dark clouds or screaming folks running for their lives! Yes, I am laughing and thanks for answering back, I appreciate it.

    @ brooklynKhloe– I am not a pastor. Yes, I can be straightforward/tough when needed and some probably think I’m scary, too, only sometimes though–but, I betcha I’m more loved and respected than you think.

    This site is designed to repel and destroy the wolves doctrine, not one another; I am sorry that those who are new here have “popped in” at a time when some subjects appear heated–for my behavior, I am sincerely sorry, please forgive me.

    God’s best always,
    K

  49. Mickey Merrie says:

    @ Bud (the de)Press(er)…LOL !
    You too!?!? I thought it was just me!!!
    On top of all those attributes, I am reported to be backslidden, bitter, hurt, struggling, et al…and that’s just the folks who used to “fellowship” with me…LOL
    I appreciate this site and all you all here, even if we at times, …ah, never mind…It’s Sunday..but Monday’s coming…

  50. IWTT says:

    Forgiveness is granted……….Trust is earned………….

    Amen and Amen

    I was in a situation in a church in the past where the person who was in childrens ministry was caught molesting a teenager. That person was put in jail. We found out later that he was in jail in another state for rape (this was before he moved to the town I lived in).

    When he came out of jail he came to us and asked for our forgiveness, which scripturally we did, but then wanted to be restored to his position. He had paid his time as he put it. We would get letters from him while he was in jail and they were written in the style of the letters from Paul (the Apostle). Something was really amiss here.

    We told him that we would forgive him but it would be a long time before we could ever trusy him and that is why he would not be put into that position. Frankly, non of us elders would have ever approved such a move. Point being forgivenss and trust to me are two seperate issues and I agree…. trust is earned!!!

  51. Rev's. Kate & Rich M. says:

    Let us all praise our God for His unending love and forgiveness and call this subject to a halt.

    Much love to all my brothers and sisters in Christ… K

  52. Kiwi Dave says:

    Can anyone find a passage of scripture relating to the New Testament Church, the Bride of Christ, where a fallen pastor or bishop was restored to their position?

  53. Frank says:

    Some people have posted in here that they ‘don’t see where someone is precluded from leadership’ after a sin such as adultery. The Bible doesn’t specifically spell out that sin, but it does give us qualifications:

    Pastor Qualifications in 1 Timothy 3:1-7

    * Above Reproach – An accusation of sin won’t stick to him.
    * Husband of One Wife – He must be faithful to his wife. He adores his wife and doesn’t flirt with other women.
    * Self-Control – He is the master of his behavior. His behavior doesn’t control him.
    * Lives Wisely – He makes good choices.
    * Has a Good Reputation – People at church and in the community think highly of him. He is respected.
    * Hospitable – His home is open to others.
    * He Can Teach – He has gifted insight into the scripture and communicates well those insights to others.
    * Not Addicted to Wine – He never gets drunk or over-indulges in alcohol.
    * Not Violent – He resolves conflict peacefully.
    * Gentle – His manner and words are not abrasive …he has a good “bed side manner.”
    * Loves Peace – Is someone who works toward peace in every relationship he encounters.
    * Does Not Love Money – He is not consumed with his retirement fund or the price of gas.
    * Manages His Home Well – His family and home are in order, not in chaos. His children are polite and respectful. His finances are in order.
    * Not a New Christian – He has proven experience as a faithful follower of Jesus.

    Someone who has committed adultery is no longer qualified to lead a flock.

  54. Carolyn says:

    1 Corinthians 4:2
    Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful.
    We have been way too quick to put recent converts in positions of trust without testing them. There are some pretty good cons slithering into our churches but given time, it becomes apparent if they are liars and perverts, especially if you pay attention. And as for restoration…um…let me think about that…NO!

  55. Bud Press says:

    Kate:

    In my opinion, this is a subject that needs to be discussed until, that is, everyone has a good working idea of what God has to say, and to everyone’s satisfaction.

    Bud Press

  56. Bud Press says:

    Lavrai:

    In addition to what others have said, 1 Timothy chapter 3 provides God’s standards for conduct concerning pastors and deacons. God’s standards do not change and are binding. They are carved in stone, so to say.

    However, man’s standards do change. Should a pastor or deacon violate God’s standards, they are no longer beyond reproach, living wisely, respected with the church or community, etc., and are disqualified from serving in the position of a pastor or deacon.

    God established His standards thousands of years ago. We would do well to abide by and uphold those standards, and refrain from inserting our feelings and emotions.

    Bud Press

  57. Carolyn says:

    Kiwi Dave…no I can’t. And anyways, if we are looking for loopholes to reinstate someone, something is wrong. If someone commits adultery, according to Scripture, it shows an instant disqualification of leadership. Think about the reasons leaders are reinstated; usually career positions that are dependent on the benefits of monetary and financial support. But that is all forfeited for the choice of adultery; that is if you want a NT church built on the foundation and teachings of the apostles and prophets.
    It’s pretty clear that they can be… restored to fellowship, but not leadership…not for years, and probably not ever…because Christ said “feed my sheep” . He did not say “feed yourself” and they have made the choice for the latter… any disagreement?

  58. Teresa says:

    Carolyn are you back home from Taiwan, been missing you.

    Amen to your comment sister.

  59. IWTT says:

    Bud Press states…
    Should a pastor or deacon violate God’s standards, they are no longer beyond reproach, living wisely, respected with the church or community, etc., and are disqualified from serving in the position of a pastor or deacon.

    Here is a thought, first, this is a small quote from another site…
    …the Lord opened the eyes of the Gentile nations of the earth to the brightness of His coming, that they may be saved, and in turn provoke to jealousy the Jews that had previously rejected Him, that they may also turn and be saved.

    Do you think that these people who are lost into this theological quagmire of falseness, are in anyway bringing jealousy to the Jew that they may turn and be saved…..? How about the Jew looks at them and the lower standard if integrity that is happening, and they think that Christianity is nuts!!!!

    It’s all backwards folks…. they have been given a delusion and in reality, it’s no longer about Gods plan but about their own.

  60. Mike A says:

    To me, it seems more like opinions are leading the charge on both sides of the issue rather than fact.

    Fact: The Bible is clear on necessary qualification for a pastor/teacher and elder/deacon.

    Fact: the Bible is not clear on the restoration of said individuals (only believers to the church body).

    Agree or disagree?

  61. Rev's. Kate & Rich M. says:

    Is there a clear, concise subjective New Testament scripture which prohibits and totally negates and completely, never, ever, not one iota of a chance to restore; null, void, kaput… a fallen pastor/bishop who has truly repented (which means complete change, change, change and more change) to office?

    1 Timothy 3 shows us the qualifications for office, or disqualification; glass half empty or half full perspective.

    Please… someone find the NT scripture subject… the exact jot and tittle scripture that says, no… The KJV, NKJV, NIV, Amplified; New Amplified, Re-newed New Amplified, The Old Re-newed New Amplified Redone and Twice Removed (being goofy now)?

    Let me know and I will graciously eat my words and plead mea culpa. I mean it, you know I do.

    I must be brain dead, the saving grace of Jesus permits and grants forgiveness and repentance to all when we are serious– all the time; we are known by our fruit–tested, tried, disciplined and true to God’s word with no ifs, ands or buts; is God a liar and a bigot and a sexist, and throw in, a controller? Just to add a little spice.

    His Blood of redemption is only for a “perfect” few, like who…?

    It’s better to grant grace and be merciful after qualifications are sincerely met–sincerely– let’s just get rid of the Book of Romans, anyway. Oh heck! Throw out the whole New Testament while we’re at it as we show that we as Christians can be self-righteous and an unforgiving pack of legalistic dingbats trying to unsuccessfully sway the lost to Jesus; which never, never works.

    Hey, we sometimes, I included, act like the wolves we detest… snarl, snap, bite… rip apart!

    It is not God’s plan or purpose, or the Savior I know.

    And, whew, this is the last I’m going to post on this subject! kkkkkkk kisses… :) Kate

  62. Berean Gal says:

    “When a preacher compromises his doctrine, his motive is always evil, and usually involves some form of personal gain. For that gain, he willingly separates himself from brethren of proven faithfulness, and takes for new associates men of proven unfaithfulness.” Don Fortner

  63. Mickey Merrie says:

    Perhaps after reading this you will have your answer regarding these men, and the question of restoration… Can you restore what appeared to be, but never was, in right relationship? Whether YOU think they were, or not, matters not! Jude, and thus Jesus, is quite clear as to who these are…Every New Testiment book warns us of them, yet because we feel good about them, we become blind to the truth…remember angels of light?!?!
    ………………………………………………………

    Jud 1:1 ¶ Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, [and] called:
    Jud 1:2 Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.
    Jud 1:3 ¶ Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
    Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
    Jud 1:5 ¶ I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
    Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
    Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
    Jud 1:8 Likewise also these [filthy] dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
    Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
    Jud 1:10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
    Jud 1:11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
    Jud 1:12 ¶ These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds [they are] without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
    Jud 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
    Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
    Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
    Jud 1:16 ¶ These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling [words], having men’s persons in admiration because of advantage.
    Jud 1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
    Jud 1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
    Jud 1:19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
    Jud 1:20 ¶ But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
    Jud 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

    Jud 1:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:

    Jud 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling [them] out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

    Jud 1:24 ¶ Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

    Jud 1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, [be] glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

  64. Sean says:

    I agree with Kate on this one.

  65. ruthsongs says:

    Somebody smarter than me might be able to comment on whether John Mark of Acts would be an example to look at. Paul seemed to think whatever caused John Mark to leave them was serious enough that he had a sharp disagreement with Barnabas about taking him on another missionary journey….?

    I’m not suggesting it was anything like adultery, but that it was enough for Paul to not trust him…

    I don’t actually have an opinion on this, was just sitting here racking my brain for any examples to look at as per Mike A’s post

  66. Carolyn says:

    Individually, we are forgiven…Yes!!!
    But as soon as you have a group, you need some sort of organized standard… otherwise you have chaos and every evil practice.
    Truthfulness and purity are the standards that are set out for our lives and should we expect less from our leadership? These are the qualities that define Christianity to the world. Other cultures and other religions allow a standard of deceit and immoral behaviour if it serves them well, but not Christianity. Therefore if you have pastors or leaders conning the sheep, greedy for gain or living impurely, and there is no consequence ie. what has happened among the Catholic priesthood and the Charismatic leadership…then purity is unrecognizable and Christianity becomes a mockery. Is this not exactly the situation today? As has been said by many already on this blog…
    yes…there is a standard of conduct as laid out by Paul:
    1 Timothy 3
    15 if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
    The elders and deacons are a protective barrier against the wiles of con men and apostates. If they are doing their job, they will sniff out the deviants before the have a chance to settle in a create havoc among the sheep.

    Teresa…thank you! I am in Taiwan for all of December to welcome my most handsome little grandson into the world. He is keeping me busy. love you all!

  67. Bud Press says:

    Mike A:

    You stated in part, “To me, it seems more like opinions are leading the charge on both sides of the issue rather than fact.”

    Although both opinions and facts have been expressed in this thread, the facts take authority over opinions 100% of the time. Therefore, let’s look at the facts–from a Biblical perspective.

    With 1 Timothy chapter 3 in mind, take a serious look at Titus chapter 3:5-16, where God’s qualifications and disqualifications for elders (overseers) are provided in vivid detail.

    Titus 1:6-9 explains the qualifications of an elder, and is cross-referenced with 1 Timothy chapter 3. Titus 1:10-16 demonstrates what disqualifies an individual from being an elder, and what will remove an elder from his position if he violates the original qualifications (common sense).

    A good example of who is and isn’t qualified to be an elder is found in Acts 20:27-31, where the Apostle Paul lovingly warned the Ephesian elders about the savage wolves who would enter the Christian church from the outside, and even spring up from the inside. Paul reminded the elders that they were given their position by the Holy Spirit, and went on to admonish the elders to be “alert” and “guard” their congregations.

    Does this include those who may have been chosen as elders, but later slid into false teachings? Yes.

    Now, during Biblical times, were men (and women) unqualified, disqualified, and removed from their ministerial positions? Yes. Here are some examples:

    – Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5:1-11).
    – Hymenaeus and Alexander (I Timothy 1:18-20).
    – Phygelus and Hermogenes (2 Timothy 1:13-15).
    – Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:15-18).
    – Demas (2 Timothy 4:10).
    – Alexander the coppersmith (2 Timothy 4:14-15).
    – Diotrephes (3 John 1:9-10).

    Last but not least, there was Judas Iscariot, who was among the original 12 disciples. He betrayed Jesus and was removed from his position as apostle (Matthew 10:1-5; Matthew 27:1-5).

    Fast-forward to 2010. The same rules and guidelines apply. There are men who claim to be Christian, but they do not measure-up to God’s qualifications for leadership in the first place. They are found in violation over and over again and, in many cases, they retain their positions. Why? One reason is greed. Another reason is that they have gathered to themselves followers who make excuses, insert and rely on their opinions, and defend them over and above what God’s written word clearly teaches.

    This is why it is extremely important to study God’s word thoroughly, and in context, to prevent wagging of the tongue before the brain is in gear.

    Bud Press

  68. Frank says:

    I do not understand how anyone who has read the Bible cannot see that this is not condemnation or “legalism” or “self- righteousness”. Just because someone is no longer qualified to be a pastor does not mean they are damned to hell because of a sin.

    And the proper definition of Biblical “legalism” is relying on the law to save, as the jews do. There is no legalism in discussing the qualifications of a pastor. God is not the author of confusion, Lucifer is.

    If the Bible is not our guide. what is ?

  69. Teresa says:

    Pastor’s are judged by God on a higher standard and held to a higher standard. Kate, So where do we draw the line……. I do understand what you are saying but if this is the case, then anything goes. Have said that, then we all have a license to grossly sin, committing adultery, murder or what have you. Those who truly belong to the LORD would never want to do those things. Yes, we are under God’s precious grace but we can not do what we want and get by with it. There has to be some guide lines we life by.

    Then where do false prophets, false teachers, like Benny Hinn, Todd Bentley, Jimmy Swagart, Paul Cain, John Hagee, and many, many more. Where do they fit into this exception? I AM CONFUSED………………….

    I am not meaning to put you on the choping block or public display and I do respect your opinion. I do not understand because I stronly disagree with you.
    I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Much love to you, Teresa

    Like I said before………FORGIVENESS is granted….. Trust is earned.

    I think I am done with this one as well…………

  70. Teresa says:

    Ok, I am not done yet.
    As believers, are we not to be like Christ. Isn’t Jesus Christ our example of how we are to live and be. Are we not to be comformed by this world but be transformed by the renewing of our minds. By the mercies of God, is not our bodies a living sacrifice to God, holy and acceptable Romans 12

    I am not trying to legalistic but LORD help me understand this. There is such a compromise of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, how we live or our live style (private and/or public) and what we think is acceptable in our own eyes.

    Compromise can be defined as settling on or accepting something just a little below where you know it ought to be. When it comes to doctrine and the goals and nature of authentic Christianity, compromise inevitably leads to destruction. From Eric Barger

    Definition of compromise is this…. Pay close attention to number 4

    com·pro·mise (käm′prə mīz′)

    noun

    1. a settlement in which each side gives up some demands or makes concessions

    2.
    a. an adjustment of opposing principles, systems, etc. by modifying some aspects of each
    b. the result of such an adjustment

    3. something midway between two other things in quality, effect, etc.

    4.
    a. exposure, as of one’s reputation, to danger, suspicion, or disrepute
    b. a weakening, as of one’s principles

    Overseer are to be “Above Reproach” “Must be” (Now we are not talking about sin free) We all sin and fall short. What are the must be……. and…. the above reproaches……..

    Above suspicion, clean hands, blameless, clean, decent, faultless, flawless, modest, pure, defiled, spotless, unblemished, crime less

    Reproach means (1) Blame, rebuke (2) one that cause rebuke or blame.
    (3) Disgrace or shame

    I get it…….I must go to work now God bless

  71. Rev's. Kate & Rich M. says:

    Hi Caolyn, glad you’re home for Christmas, congrats on the baby!

    No prob, Teresa, go to work and talk to you soon; no, not anything goes, you’re right, I agree.

    We can go on and on with this subject…almost as exciting as the one we all went into the stratusphere during last summer, when over 350 plus, I believe, comments were given on the Hinn/White debacle.

    Well, it very well may fly there, too. See you all later. K :)

  72. Mike A says:

    See Bud…I like facts. Facts do not lie. They can be distorted, but when carefully examined under a microscope, the truth always comes out. I like that. And I enjoyed this thread. And I enjoyed your response – you articulated clearly what I was wanting to see.

    Even before this thread was started, my take was that if a minister or elder is to be above reproach, then if they should fall from that position it is not wise to restore them to the office of pastor/teacher or elder.

    I thoroughly enjoyed reading everyone’s opinions and diatribes! This was one of the more enjoyable threads (to me anyway) in a long time.

    Adios from this one

    Mike A

  73. Teresa says:

    There is a couple of corrections I like to make

    From first post
    (1) I do not understand…. I stronly disagree with you.

    From second post
    (2) I don’t get it….

  74. Rev's. Kate & Rich M. says:

    Ahh… Teresa, don’t worry about it — I don’t get it either, whatever “it” is anymore– I have completely lost the desire to respond, I am beat!

    Let Bud Press figure it out. Go Bud!

    Carolyn, I forgot to put the “r” in you name up there in my comment, but the sentiment is the same– wazz-up, girl?

    Is it, the correct spelling, stratus or stratosphere–all you scientists out there, I’m too beat to look it up.

    Have a good one, K

  75. Teresa says:

    @ Kate
    I am not getting this, that all. I hope I am not sounding sarcastic or nasty, if I am forgive me.
    This thread is not exciting, heart breaking actually. All these mega ministries, all these pastors, all these scandals. What is it doing to the flock, the sheep. What is this saying to the people, it okay.

    I think about Lucifer when he fell, he took 1/3 of the angels with him. I think about when pastors fall, how many they take with them, how many lives are affected by this scandal. Who restores these people?

    I think about Earl Paul having an affair with his sister-in-law. Many years pass, Earl finds out that his nephew is his son, Donnie Paulk. Donnie Paulk, greatly affected by this. I believe now Donnie is into Universalism.
    I am just trying to understand, later………..
    That is all

  76. Rev's. Kate & Rich M. says:

    Teresa there isn’t a sarcastic bone in your wonderful frame!

    God looks at you and His heart knows your makeup, He knows you.

    Take a break from this subject for a while because you seem to be getting frustrated, and I understand–it’s okay, sister.

    If and when you are comfortable to take this on again, then go… in the meantime, let the theologians (which I am not) banter–because I’ve had it, too. Believe me, God’s got the whole shebang in control… hallelujah!

    What’s happening in VA for the holidays, anyway? Got stuff going on, family fun and Christmas joy to spread?! Good for you and those blessed to have you.

    Talk to you soon and love you to bits! Sister K xxx and ooo

  77. Teresa says:

    @Kate
    Your correct, I am frustrated, only because I see what it is doing to the Gospel of Jesus Christ and to other people.

    We will be leaving Wisconsin Dec 23, heading to “almost heaven West Virginia blue ridge mountains” sing it with me. LOL I can not wait to give my mom and dad hugs and kisses. They are wonderful Christian people. Just celebrated there 64 th wedding anniversary in October and they have 12 kids, I am the baby of the family.

    Love you to Kate , get some rest.

    My daughter is talking and I must pay her some attention,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

  78. Teresa says:

    @ Carolyn

    OH, Congrads to the grandmother. Have fun and enjoy you new grandson………………….

  79. Rev's. Kate & Rich M. says:

    Chrystal, thanks for leaving this post alive!

    Just reading and reminiscing… ahhh…this one… just cracks me up!

    Heaven, we sound like a basket of “cranky ole folk”… I am laughing and will look back for years when I need a good laugh.

    God be praised and I love you guys!

    Have a super-duper 2011 celebration!

    :) K

  80. Rev: Jesus E. Diaz says:

    This is all so true and relevant! The way I see it, restoration among us is an obligation. But positioning people back to ministry? Well; one thing is for someone to give up or simply stand down due to a particular fault or weakness even for lack of health or support. But to deliberately and what’s worst, secretly sin playing with people’s feelings and innocence taking advantage of their genorosity while hypocritically teaching what is holy and should be held up as nothing less then sacred is just in all honesty irreparable. We have all in one way or another failed God and sinned against Him and others; but w/out a doubt anyone who truly loves and fears the Lord knows what honor should’nt accept, knowing that in humble humiliation is where exaltation is granted and eternally heavenly approved!

  81. Rev's. Kate & Rich M. says:

    This is my favorite site! Rev. K :)

Comments are closed.