In the following video, Julie Meyer’s gettin’ all undignified while leading the student rebellion, uh, I mean praise and worship time at IHOP.
The name of the song she is singing is called “Undignified,” and as she belts out the lyrics, which are basically a repetition of “and I can be even more undignified than that,” the crowd shouts their approval. Towards the end of the video, Meyer manages to get them whipped into quite a frenzy by tearing loose and cutting a jig across the stage. As usual, the crowd eats it up. But, does God want us to be undignified?
Here’s what the holy Scriptures say:
Titus 2:1-8:
1 But as for you, speak the things which are fitting for sound doctrine.
2 Older men are to be temperate, dignified, sensible, sound in faith, in love, in perseverance.
3 Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips, nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good,
4 that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be dishonored.
6 Likewise urge the young men to be sensible;
7 in all things show yourself to be an example of good deeds, with purity in doctrine, dignified,
8 sound in speech which is beyond reproach, in order that the opponent may be put to shame, having nothing bad to say about us. (emphasis mine)
Where’s the video?
LOL! I forgot to link it!
It’s been a long day. *yawn*
Thanks for keeping me on my toes!
Now, I have a headache!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How does that glorify the LORD!!!!
She’s not really a singer is she?–I mean, I never saw or heard her before but her voice is terrible.
Supposedly this is based on 2Sam6:22 where King David was dancing and prancing and responding to his wife who got on him about his actions out in public
A link I read recently that discusses this http://scotteriology.wordpress.com/2010/11/04/should-david-be-normative-for-modern-worship/
Truthfully, Julie Meyer’s a new name in my book, but link her up with IHOP and as they say down south, ‘’nuff said’’. Amazing how the IHOP crowd, the cheering, adoring fans, will take whatever comes across the IHOP “stage” and automatically say it just has to be “of God” because of the marvelous wonders they saw and heard..
Getting back to Julie..and the scripture you noted out of Titus, does anyone at IHOP ever read anything other than what’s taught? Does anyone ever do what Mike Bickle is always admonishing them to do? i.e. “Don’t take MY word for it. YOU’ve got your bibles! YOU check and see if what I’m telling you is right or not.” Does anyone ever really do that? I know of one person who did that – mentioned it to some friends and ultimately got booted right out the IHOP door.
Pretty doggone ‘undignified’ of IHOP for doing that – ya think?
Whilst I do share the concerns about IHOP expressed here and elsewhere, I’m actually going to say that it isn’t worth sounding the alarm over this.
They’re doing a song called “Undignified” by British worship leader Matt Redman, although Julie Meyer has changed the lyrics slightly. It’s inspired by 2 Samuel 6, and the line in question comes from king David’s response to Michal when she criticises his dancing: “I will become even more undignified than this…” (2 Sam 6:22, NIV).
(By the way, all bible scholars conclude that, in this story, David was righteous before God but Michal sinned and received judgement).
So we obviously have two Biblical statements that could be considered to be in conflict – the “undignified” of 2 Sam 6 and the “dignified” of Titus 2. But I don’t believe that the Bible ever contradicts itself and find it quite easy to reconcile the two. In fact, I’m not sure that “undignified” conveys the intent of the underlying Greek. I think you’ve used the NASB, which seems to be unique in using “undignified” in Titus 2. All the other versions I’ve checked use a different wording. But even if it is the best translation, I don’t think Paul wanted to prohibit passionate worship that is seen as extreme by those whose hearts are proud.
Chrystal, I’m sorry to have to disagree with you here, as I do appreciate what you do on this blog. My point is that we need to be careful when we interpret the Bible – if you read a passage in isolation using a single translation then you can easily get the wrong idea.
Yes, I know Richard, but one of the habits the charismatics have is that they take anything and everything from Scripture and apply it to themselves. This is a loose and haphazard way to interpret Scripture. Just because King David said he was going to be undignified while rebuking a wife, does that mean we should completely ignore Scripture that tells us to be dignified, humble, gentle, modest, sober, etc? King David also slew a man who came to him and lied about killing King Saul. Should we do that as well? David also slept with another man’s wife and then had him murdered. Should we do that as well?
As with everything else, the charismatics are practicing misapplication and taking things out of context.
How I am ashamed to say it, but it was not incredibly long ago that I was a worship leader in the same vein as this. Maybe I was so bold and audacious as this woman, but it was certainly not out of a desire not to be. Looking back at times gone by, and some of the more memorable times of praise and thanksgiving I’ve led, I have little assurance that what I witnessed was not simply my excitement and zeal moving upon people, as opposed to the Holy Spirit. Thinking about it, I think it highly unlikely that it would have been the Holy Spirit moving in such a joyous and uplifting manner, upon so many who needed to truly be broken and brought unto true repentance and faith.
Forgive me Lord for the damage I have done in Your house over the years I’ve been in it.
un·dig·ni·fied (n-dgn-fd)
adj.
Lacking in or damaging to dignity. Lacking in dignity!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I expect to see this kind of behavior coming from these people. The part that I hate to admit to is…. I use do and act the same way.
I give all the glory to God for opening my eyes, so I can no longer ever act such a way to bring disrespect to Jesus Christ or the gospel.
This scripture come to my heart when I watch this video……………….
1 Cor. 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God. KJV
A couple points here.
1) Although this story may be about David, how can it be called praise? It isn’t worshipful, at least in the chorus. Is it worthy to be offered as a SACRIFICE? Repeating over and over “I can be even more undignified than this” brings no level of praise, and leaves in question maturity. You can call it a spiritual song (possibly) or you can use it for instruction, but to call it praise or worship would indeed be a stretch. Chrystal, do you know the context of this song? Special music, p&w, paid concert, etc?
2) Redman may have wrote the song, but did he intend it to be used in this way? I’m not familiar with the original song so I can’t say, but just as Christians can use yoga, or more directly, U2 or Genesis music and somehow apply the story to their message, it is possible that IHOP is just doing whatever they please with this song.
3) John, as a brother I consider it to be highly prized when another brother recognizes what is occurring in the church and instead of trying to defend what they enjoy, they are truly seeking the heart of God and examining their actions against His perfection. I hope you use what you’ve learned to conduct worship the way you understand it now, and instruct others in the way they should go. Your repentance gives me hope.
As a “sometimes” songwriter I am very conscious of trying to be more than Biblical in my writing, but also to make sure the song accomplishes a goal (p&w), and have the theology checked by my pastor. Saying that, I’m also a bit nervous seeing other people willing to take a song, use it out of context and change the words for their purpose.
I’m obviously out of the loop. I thought IHOP served pancakes. Apparently, this one doesn’t. So what is IHOP?
I was going to mention that this song is from Matt Redman (who I generally like and find to be very God-glorifying in his songwriting), but Richard beat me to the punch!
That said, it also bears mentioning that I’ve never heard or seen this song performed outside of extreme charismatic churches where the term “religious spirit” is hurled around as an epithet to refer to those of us who don’t scream, gyrate and pass out in church.
In the spirit of 1 Corinthians (the command for decorum and order in the church), I think this kind of “worship” = strange fire and is a perversion of truly honoring God. Besides the fact that everything coming out of IHOP is grossly aberrational at best, and heretical at worst.
I have to agree with Richard about this. I have been in charismania, mainline church, and the Messianic movement. I have experienced sitting in pew and singing, and dancing before the Lord in high praise. I do prefer the demonstrative form of worshiping Him-the Jews were and are all about dance to praise the Lord and sometimes they could be accused of undignified worship. To some who prefer this mode of worship, they could be perceived as undiginified. But, I do believe there needs to be a balance-anything that God has ordained can be carried to an extreme. “Let them praise His Name with dancing…” Psalm 149:3 I too appreciate your blogs, Chrystal. It’s good material for discussion and makes us all evaluate what we believe and why.
Good points, Richard and Chrystal.
However, I have to agree with the context and misapplication point, though, as taking bits and pieces of scripture just doesn’t work, or worth a pot of beans; precisely why I’m not involved in the insanity anymore and I’m happier for it.
Praise God I am out of that!
Have a super Thanksgiving, folks and God’s blessings to you all!
K
Annunk…you made me laugh. They gave you the boot…well wipe the dust off…..and keep going.
I say, watching this You Tube, I can see HOW they are worshipping but it’s the WHO I can’t make out. I think they need to figure out the WHO first and then the other will be by the Spirit.
JD – been there. We can serve him by warning others about a false annointing…
I think Richard has a great argument – I think Chrystal has a great argument.
The case of David dancing before the Lord in an”undignified” way….it was Michal who claimed the celebration to be undignified of a king to not maintain his composure in public.
While true worship and celebration of the Lord may lead to what some would describe as “undignified” – the true error in this particular clip is that the worship leader is purposefully stirring the crowd into a frenzy for the sole purpose of gaining a reaction in the affirmative. Perhaps true worship will lead some to laugh joyfully and some to weep before the Lord – or in the case of King David, to dance. But to lead worship as if it were a concert for men…that is a disgrace and shows a lack of understanding of scriptural worship.
This is a wonderful topic to discuss – I hope the discussion continues.
Mike A’s comment stirred something in my mind….and then he prods me to continue
But observing this behaviour. What is really occurring here? Particularly, there is a big gap between what we hear and what we feel, and most people can’t make the distinction. John Braheny, a songwriter and business guy, wrote a book on the craft and points out this disconnect. What do people call a good song? When I was in radio, we did our programming based on the lyrics. The message comes first, and the delivery second. But points to consider when you find yourself grooving on a tune like the people in the video above are:
- what is this song really saying with the words? (try reading them sometime without knowing how they fit into the music)
- am I moved by lyrics which identify a mighty God with whom I am already aware of?
- am I moved by the performance of the musicians?
- am I moved by the production (technical perfection)?
- am I moved by the technology (reverb, delays, guitar effects, synthesizers)?
- am I disrupted by a misplaced note or technical glitch?
- am I moved by the lighting, clapping, other people and general atmosphere?
- finally, am I moved by the Spirit or my feelings and emotions about the performance, musicians, production, technology and atmosphere?
Billy Edwards my man! That was great! Sterling, sterling!
Out of the loop? That’s an understatement.
Well, welcome to this site and know, at one time, maybe close to a year ago, I too thought IHOP was just a pancake house!
Ha ha, did I get an education? I should receive a doctorate in Stupid Ministry Studies soon, as we speak really, which I know many of my colleagues here will be receiving or have received. Just ask them, they’ll be happy to oblige.
You are one funny guy, Billy E. You don’t know the can of worms you have opened; so while you’re checking it out, God be with you and have a ball — the ride is worth it!
Oh, hooray, I just got my Ph.D in the mail–let me open it–hmm, Rev. Kate M., Ph,D–Doctor of Stupid Ministry Studies–Magna Cum Laude, and an honorable mention, too, wow!
If anyone has theirs or has gotten theirs, please share the news. And, if you need one, just ask the teaching staff here (we here at Slaughter of the Sheep University of Wolf Watching Site ) and you’ll be receiving one, too.
The only criteria is a “thesis” as to how to be honest in your pursuit of God’s real word and know how to spot the phonies a mile away. If you need glasses, we’ll give ‘em to ya, no prob.
Talk to you soon,
K
Billy,
IHOP stands for International House of Prayer. Actually, the real IHOP is sueing them for copyright infringement. But that’s the least of their problems.
IHOP is a hyper-charismatic, post-millenialist, Kingdom-now/Joel’s Army group started by the “Kansas City Prophets” witha stated goal of centralizing all local churches in an area into one – namely, theirs. Mike Bickle is the head honcho. Google “IHOP cult” for more info. Sign o’ the times…we are in the last days.
Embarrassing to watch–the only thing worse than her singing and her behaviour is her “dancing” at the end. Some people have no shame.
WHO is on first
What is on second
I don’t know is on third
Why and because are in the outfield
Tomorrow and today are pitching and catching
You have to understand the sayings of Abbott and Costello for that to make any sense
I remember singing that very song in church just a few years ago. As I think about it now, I believe I was more excited because everyone else was more excited. There were some songs that I was truly touched by, but then most songs were hyped up by the p&w band and leader. They never let us sit down and if we lowered our arms (because you were tired), we were immediately ordered to raise them again. Based on what Life in the Church stated, I think a lot of times we were just reacting to leaders.
I also appreciate the discussions here.
@ Chrystal: Whilst I’m aware that charismatics often take things out of context (but are not the only ones guilty of this), there are several other references to dancing in the Bible so it’s not a case of using King David as the only example. Whilst the question of whether dancing in worship is appropriate for today is debatable, many people feel that it is. 2 Sam 6 is a fairly well-known story and I don’t have any major issues with Matt Redman’s interpretation of it. David’s indignity was that he broke protocol, took off his royal robes, wore a priest’s garment and joined in the joyful worship along with everyone else. He ceased to be the high and mighty king in order to worship the Lord who is the true King of Israel. I find that a powerful and challenging story in many ways.
@ Mike A: I don’t personally think Julie Meyer is being unduly manipulative – is she not just encouraging the congregation and and leading by example? Also it’s not a performance or concert setting. And I used to attend a church where there was a lot of soft organ music – surely that’s also designed to produce a particular response in the congregation?
@ Life In The Church: Obviously the lyrics and music work together (in any song) but in this situation the lyrics make sense on their own. Again, you don’t see production elements in the clip.
For examples of “worship” that are really productions or concerts, have a look on YouTube for videos of IHOPs OneThing conferences or Hillsong events – there’s loads of them, and you’ll see the difference – flashing lights, smoke machines, stage sets, etc.
I never thought I’d be defending IHOP but this clip doesn’t really bother me.
@Grant. I have no idea what you are talking about….way before my time.
@Kate and BE: IHOP …something a bunny does…and I didn’t need a PhD to figure that one out!
As one who hates the spotlight with a passion, this screams…’Look at me, look at me’.
I really want some pancakes now!
@ Richard
You can defend this video and IHOP all you’d like. Bottom line IHOP is a dangerous place and is full of dangerous teachings and false prophets. Julie is a false prophet and she is friends with Patrica King, that should be a red flag. The roots and the fruit of this stuff is not from God. Like Chrystal said I will relink what she said.
Chrystal said………. Yes, I know Richard, but one of the habits the charismatics have is that they take anything and everything from Scripture and apply it to themselves. This is a loose and haphazard way to interpret Scripture. Just because King David said he was going to be undignified while rebuking a wife, does that mean we should completely ignore Scripture that tells us to be dignified, humble, gentle, modest, sober, etc? King David also slew a man who came to him and lied about killing King Saul. Should we do that as well? David also slept with another man’s wife and then had him murdered. Should we do that as well?
As with everything else, the charismatics are practicing misapplication and taking things out of context.
Here is my take on what is going on…
1) since I came out of this very thing as a “worship leader” and the teaching of “prophetic worhip” and some “harp and bowl” I understand the WHOLE picture of what this little snippet is that I am watching…
2) This whole meeting with the worship is with the intent of “making the atmosphere” feel like the presence of God (or Holy Spirit) is in the place. There will be different attributes of God that will be brought “in” through the different aspects of the music (hence becoming prophetic worship) in the place they are at. It is more like using a “form”, “sounds”, “actions” and “re-inetrpretation or revision” of either scripture or “prophetic words” to help bring this “atmosphere” about. Yes they may look like it is a time of “joy” but there will be this attitude that the Holy Spirit is orchestarting this and then we have the warm, fuzzy, goosebumpy feelings that will cause them to say, “…the presence of the Lord is in the place” due to what they are doing.
My response is, “Where two or more are gathered in His name He is there also.”
So what they propose they are doing is bring the “presence” as if He wasn’t already there is wrong for scripture tells us different. This is really an “all about me” and see how my abilities bring in the presence. And attribute behind the scenes because we don’t see the whole picture on the You Tube that even this small snippet was due to the moving of the spirit.
Forget the song itself and the author of the song, whether you agree with it theologically or not isn’t, IMHO, the issue. It is how and what they think they have the “power” to due to “MAKE” the Lord come and bring “visitation”. I know because this is what I was taught and thried to do myself, using songs, (which by the way the owrds were secondary) that brought emotions into play. God forgive me!
The other thing I wanted to add to this is that I believe this whole method of “worship” is, again, taking certain verses out of context, to develope and teach “a new revelation given by God” or “theology” to fit within the Dominion/NAR/MSoG etc., teachings.
@ IWTT – And if I may add to what you said, when these folks don’t ‘feel’ that goosebumpy feeling, that see it as ‘oh well the “anointing” just wasn’t there and therefore the worship leader isn’t anointed to lead worship’. So judgemental! They believe that only the elite can have such an anointing. They believe that they ARE the elite\anointed.
I’ve seen it many, many times, unfortunately…in church, and at the Onething conference in Orlando, which is an IHOP deal.
In judging righteous judgement, we must consider the “message behind the man/woman”. I know God dwells in the praises of his people, but would he put his annointing on a “worship” that is based on the foundation of false teaching? I know it is hard to swallow for those being called out of charismanian, but all the worship you have been involved in, is false, if the message is wrong.
Not only is the message wrong, the “methodology” is wrong. Did you know that methodology, practice and sorcery are all synoyms? Yes, Simon the Sorcerer practiced “methodology”, which is also the boast of many in these signs and wonders/New Age/ Emergent fellowships. They have traded the message of Christ for the methodology of “their” Christ. And the annointing they are “feeling” is fleshly.
It doesn’t matter how “annointed” something feels. If the message or method behind the music is not the Christ of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, then he is not the Christ of the Bible. He is another Christ and it follows that the annointing is also false. My heart is to get to know the real so I will not be deceived by the counterfeit.
@Richard
This is strictly my opinion – but I do not think a worship leader should have to “work” to get the people worshiping! The song does not bother me; the atmosphere does. Worship is to be given to God because He is Holy. The moment a person’s eyes stray from Jesus and onto the antics of another….there is the problem.
I have been there and done that. I refuse to be apart of that and will never tell another person that it is ok – it is not ok. There is very little grey area here (IMO).
With that said – I appreciate your comments and I am considering your points. Have a good week.
@ Teresa:
Sorry, perhaps I shouldn’t have used the phrase “defending IHOP” in my previous comment. IHOP can be considered a cult and yes there’s lots of false teachings and false prophets in it. The fact that Bickle welcomed John Arnott and Bill Johnson is evidence that they are very dubious indeed. Please, we are on the same page here.
I also completely agree with the views expressed by IWTT and Beracah – worship is not about creating an “atmosphere” or giving people an emotional experience that is falsely claimed to be the presence of God, the Holy Spirit, the “anointing”, etc. That really concerns me – as I said earlier there’s lots of YouTube videos of IHOP OneThing conferences and they look more like a pop concert than a worship meeting.
But what we see in this brief video clip is not worth worrying about. The kids at my church sing the same song from time to time and they do dance about to it (and we have nothing to do with anything dodgy). I’d guess the same is true for numerous other churches. We should concentrate on the more important stuff, not trivial matters.
Richard,
What I do wonder is why you post here under so many different names, i.e. Anastasis, Tony, David S, Jonathan, John, Andrew, Derek, Daniel, Fred, Ian, anon, Watchman, Amateur Theologian, Discerner, and TruthSeeker.
It seems a bit disingenuous. Why, if you are going to post under so many different names, should I allow you to continue posting?
They believe that they ARE the elite\anointed.
I agree, I have to say looking back at my attitiude during those days, I thought I was something pretty special, part of a special “ministry”…PRIDE raises it’s ugly head.
In all honesty, I was so shaken by what I had learned that I was doing was so not right, that I haven’t picked up my guitar for almost 3 years now. I have so little desire to ever be in that place again. I really surprised my son-in-laws brother, when he asked me if I was still leading worship and I said no. He said don’t you miss it and I said no. He is a worship leader and now speaker for the Supernatural School of Ministry in their local IHOP….. that’s what grbbed him… leading worship.
@IWTT I was on that same prophetic worship leader road and I completely understand what you are saying. It is painful to admit how pride was so much of the motivation. I was always a little miffed I didn’t start at a younger age and therefore be higher up the anointed worship leader ladder, but now I am soooo thankful I did not go further down that road. I might not have found my way out.
I voiced my concerns on another blog and the blogger and a few others encouraged me to not stop using musical gifts for the Lord…. to let Him teach me and bring me back to true worship. I’d encourage you in the same way.
I believe there are truly prophetic songs. Not what passes as prophetic in charismania, but songs that testify of Jesus. If you write and sing those, you probably won’t get famous, but you never know how you could encourage a brother or sister just when they need it.
I have been listening to Give Me Jesus rearranged by Fernando Ortega. It was written (probably) by an African enslaved in America. It has so encouraged me- this voice from hundreds of years ago. I bet he had no idea, that slave. I bet he just testified of Jesus, and that is the true prophetic.
Pick up your guitar when He nudges you. We need GOOD songs with good doctrine.
A better translation of 2 Samuel 6:22 would be :”I am willing to shame and humiliate myself even more than this!” (NET bible). KJV renders it “vile” but the NIV, from which the Song “undignified” is based on states “I will become even more undignified than this.” Interestingly, David was communicating to Michael that in her eyes he looked “undignified” but to others- well as the NET bible states “But with the slave girls whom you mentioned let me be distinguished!”
So in context, the concept of looking undignified to those who would sneer at us- while involved in worship- seems to be biblically acceptable and not in contradiction with Titus 2:1-9. At the very least, if you were going to say “here’s what the Holy Scriptures say” you should have not been selective and excluded the very reference in the song.
Obviously the unfortunate thing is that the NIV uses (un)Dignified in both places, whereas the actual meaning is different.
It is biblical to be “willing to shame and humiliate” oneself. This conveys the concept of humbling oneself ( Matt 23:12, Luke 14:11). Paul said that he knew how to be abased (Phil 4:12). Suffering reproach for God’s sake is biblical (Jer 15:15).
Trying to make a case against the application of 2 Sam 6:22 to a believer using Titus 2 is just sloppy Exegesis. David may not have been the best role model- many of his failings are actually reported in the Bible as an example of how NOT to live (don’t look at naked babes from your rooftop), but David’s willingness to shame and humiliate himself not only was a foreshadowing of the coming Messiah who humbled himself and made himself of no reputation (Phil 2:7) but is a lovely example for us to follow.
Seriously, if you don’t like the frenzy, just say so. I’m not sure I do.
Lifeinthechurch:
Some people are moved by the singing of the Psalter!
Poor test.
————————
- am I moved by lyrics which identify a mighty God with whom I am already aware of?
- am I moved by the performance of the musicians?
- am I moved by the production (technical perfection)?
- am I disrupted by a misplaced note or technical glitch?
- am I moved by the lighting, clapping, other people and general atmosphere?
- finally, am I moved by the Spirit or my feelings and emotions about the performance, musicians, production, technology and atmosphere?
Well, Carolyn– you’ve been granted a Ph.D anyway, so congrats! You deserve it!
Richard/Truthseeker? Darling–is this true? Do you present yourself disingenuously?
Please don’t be stupid because you will not be trusted and frankly, at this point in time you can’t afford it–you need all the friends you can get.
Hmm, I’m offended, and troubled. If this is so, you do not deserve the right to post–cowardice– it make me nervous!
God be with you; if I am incorrect, then may God forgive me for misjudging. Please clear this up ASAP. K
@IWTT – I read your whole thing about the big picture and understood it but this caught me when you said ““Where two or more are gathered in His name He is there also.””
Yes, and imagine this is how they behave in the presence of the Lord! No shame or fear there!
But still, that’s pretty messed up that they believe it is THEIR actions that draw God down to them.
Mike A said:
“This is strictly my opinion – but I do not think a worship leader should have to “work” to get the people worshiping! The song does not bother me; the atmosphere does. ”
2 points:
1) the song does bother me. I don’t find it either praise or worship. So I wonder, why are they singing it. Music leaders need to discern songs. Some pick them because they feel good. Good leaders pick them because the words are woshipful and they can then lead others to worship with the words and song. But yes, the atmosphere is messed up. I don’t see anything right in that video if it is Sunday morning praise event, and if it was my church I’d run screaming…
2) You’re right, the worship leader should not have to work to get people worshipping, not if praise is a sacrifice. I wonder, would these people know how to conduct church without any music at all?
Richard says:
“But what we see in this brief video clip is not worth worrying about. The kids at my church sing the same song from time to time and they do dance about to it (and we have nothing to do with anything dodgy). I’d guess the same is true for numerous other churches. We should concentrate on the more important stuff, not trivial matters.”
This is the important stuff Richard. How the leaders of the church conduct themselves, and how they lead IS the important stuff. As I said before, if this is indeed them offering up this song as the sacrifice of praise, then I wonder how God would view it. There is little (if any) in this song that is praise. And if a church leader is leading the sheep under them to dance around in chaos singing “I can be even more undignified than this” then there needs to be some correction.
Bottom line, no matter what this IHOP or any of us believe, this appears to be nothing more than entertainment, designed to fill or fleshly desire to “feel” something “good.”
Such great comments. Whenever I consider this particular methodology in worship, it makes me think of this scripture:
Romans 10:6-8 – But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Begging God to PLEEEEEAASE come down in our little worship service is no longer part of my theology. He already came down. Thank you, Lord Jesus.
@IWTT it’s taken me almost 2 years to have the inkling of a desire to get involved in a church’s music or any other activities, so I certainly understand. I wasn’t a worship leader or a lead worshiper (not on the payroll anyway, although I was asked to help lead when our former music director retired…remember, I hate the spotlight!) I was just on the worship ‘team’, on a rotational basis. I love music and only very recently started to miss it…singing, playing trumpet & french horn….fun times, the friendships, fellowship, and spending time talking about the Lord, and what it means to worship our King, sharing ideas & thoughts. Those things I miss. The clique of the people in the choir…I don’t miss. One time after a weekly rehearsal, we had a time of prayer for each other. It was really good. But one of the choir members complained to the new music guy. The choir member complained, ‘Sunday’s for prayin, Thursday’s for singin’. That was the outward display of the attitude of ‘look at me, I’m in the choir’. I’ll never forget that.
That video reminds me if a clip from “The Muppet Show”. That’s how “spiritual” and close to God those people all are! Nothing of the music, behaviour or singing glorifies The Lord in any way. I’m not talking about the song itself, but rather the way it’s being sung and performed. I haven’t read or seen the lyrics, but it could quite possibly be a beautiful song of praise and worship if it were done slow in say 3/4 timing – a waltz. (Apart from the terrible singing, they didn’t even have a banjo in the song! ) I think she was attempting to make it a rip-roaring bluegrass song like “Somebody Touched Me” by The Dillards, and failed miserably!
Oh, Beracah- how my heart aches at this holiday time– to sing again and act and participate with my husband and people and friends and church members I have known and labored for so long and hard, with such joy, in ministry; many who do not care a fiddler’s fig anymore and that hurts!
I have cried for so long, I’m sure there’s nothing left in my body to shed anymore tears–I know how you feel.
This time of year just beats the tar out of ya, huh?
But God has me on a road… I just go where and when He says… at least, I hope I do. He has a plan for you, too.
God’s peace be unto all. K
WOW!!!!!!
@ Richard you said to me………Please, we are on the same page here.
No! Richard we are not. I’ve said it before and I will say it again.
When God’s word is not enough, the only alternative is “Deception” We will never be satisfied, we will always have a void……..we will always be looking for more……………..
I use to pray more of you Jesus give me more, more, more, give me more… How much more could God give me, when he already gave his only begotten son to die on the cross for my sins, something I did not deserve. How much more could God give me than his grace/mercy and the gift of salvation. How much more. I wanted more manifestation, more supernatural experiences, more excitement………..which could never save me or change my heart. I was addicted to the excitement and the emotionalism of all this stuff.
God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth. John 4:24 KJV
God’s word is so important that he exalts it above himself…………………
Richard I am praying for you, I agree with Kate. If this is true please come clean and repent. God bless
julie said:
“Begging God to PLEEEEEAASE come down in our little worship service is no longer part of my theology. He already came down. Thank you, Lord Jesus.”
EXACTLY! The moment I realized that very point is the moment I began to question EVERYTHING I (had) believed in.
Wow, so many comments about worship-Satan’s domain in Heaven and now he is wreaking havoc down here in churches everywhere-how truly sad! I’m glad at this point in time to be out of all of that-doing home fellowship where we have nothing to prove-for there are no crowds to deal with and the snide comments that have always come from the “saints.” I know of a lot of wounded worshipers walking around outside of fellowship.
Berakah/Beracah? Who am I talking to?
Are you one and the same, am I missing something here? K
We are two different people-it amazed me that someone else had a name very similar!!
K you crack me up! We’re 2 different people, I can assure you. I’m the one in Orlando.
Oh–good to talk to you both. Thanks for the heads -up.
Berakah, yes, I know, very hard situation. Beracah, yes, I know, very hard situation!
K
LifeintheChurch
quoting IWTT
““Where two or more are gathered in His name He is there also.””
I brought this up because when we were beginning the IHOP Harp and Bowl at my previous church, one of the things the lead pastor remarked was that they wanted to change the atmosphere of the church. As if what we did brought the presence of the Lord in the place. My wife responded with, “But we don’t need to change the atmosphere by trying to bring the presence of the Lord into the place because He is already here. “Where two or more are gathered, He is in their midst!”"
@Beracah
I am with you
We used to sing this song at church quite a bit but haven’t for some time. The problem as I see it is it’s theological shallowness.
I think you’ll find in CONTEXT, what she is singing about is that we don’t have to be so holy and pharisee like to enter Gods presence…that we can enter as we are…’I can be even more undignified then this’ – I can be even messier then I am right now and God will still want to pick me up and love me…thats what I read into it..don’t know what you’re reading into it. LOL
Is this based on Matt Redmond song “undignified” or is this one of those “free spirit under the guise of prophetic worship” songs?
If it is the Matt R. song then the lyrics have nothing to do with the “context” of what is being sung here.
The problem as I see it is that we don’t “enter in” but rather God draws us (on His terms), whom He can’t even look upon with out seeing one first through the shed blood of Christ. We are either cleansed because of repentence of sin or we are not. WE are but the worst of filthy rags.
This is where, IMHO, I think it is (I agree with a previous post) shallow theology and that the Gospel the Good News is not preached in all it’s power. We get an improper word regarding salvation. We are already as messy as we can get. We can’t get any messier.