Paul Washer on Joel Osteen and Benny Hinn

Scripture says men will heap to themselves preachers who will tickle their itching ears.  Preachers who will give them what they want, and not what they need, and they flock to these people because they want the same kinds of things the false teachers want. 

This is what Paul Washer has to say about it…

This entry was posted in False Teachers, Hucksters and tagged , , . Bookmark the permalink.

37 Responses to Paul Washer on Joel Osteen and Benny Hinn

  1. Ruitje says:

    The truth is hard. People don’t want truth, it hurts. But it is the only way to get saved and to be healed.

    When you have a thorn in your hand you can leave it there, but it will destroy you. A doctor can take it away but that will hurt. But it’s the only way to get better.
    But people look for ways to take that pain from the thorn away and let the thorn stay in their lifes. They focus on good fealings, experiences, something that will entertain them so they don’t see the thorn sticking out of their hand… They want a doctor who says it’s no problem to leave the thorn in the hand. But it will destroy them.

    Thank God there are still preachers who preach the Truth, like Paul Washer and John McArthur. And thanks for people who use the internet to show the Truth and to wake people up.

  2. Eli says:

    strong words from Paul Washer, but true words. Thanks to God for those not afraid to tell the truth. There was a time I was enamoured of Joel, and he *can* make you feel good about yourself. But I was missing the point. I no longer have a taste for touchy-feely-warm-fuzzy doctrine. Give me some truth, even if it hurts.

  3. Mike Larsen says:

    Paul is one who speaks the hard truth and I love his messages. More often than not, listening to him brings me to tears as I contemplate the condition of modern day evangelicalism. It really is pathetic. I won’t bad-mouth the bride of Christ because the true Bride of Christ isn’t the problem. The true bride is beautiful and spotless and pure before our Groom. However, there are those who claim to be a part of the bride but they are bringing in sin and bringing in tickling doctrines to those who don’t want to be challenged by the power of the Gospel to change their lives. God isn’t out of date and His Word isn’t irrelevant but much modern “preaching” is all about “I”. It’s “I” need or “I” want, or “I” desire…. ME, ME, ME. It’s like a warm-up session for an opera singer when you listen to some people. The middle letter of the word SIN is “I”. The middle letter of the word pride is ‘I”. God hates them both and will not tolerate them in His presence.

    The Laodacean era is upon us and surely the question resonates in my mind: Will He find faith upon the earth? I think we are on borrowed time, my friends. 1948 was huge. 1967 perhaps even bigger as Jerusalem became no longer under Gentile control. Seriously, how much longer do you really think it will be before we are redeemed and meet the Lord in the air? It can’t be long.

    Indeed, that God for men like Paul and John MacArthur. These two are pillars who stand relentlessly and uncompromisingly in the preaching of truth. I am always challenged by them both and I also hope that I can also be challenging to my brothers and sisters in Christ both here on the Internet as well as in the men’s group I teach and to the local body of believers that I fellowship with.

    Come quickly, Lord Jesus.

    Grace and peace,

    Mike

  4. annunk says:

    The truth is also this: We are in the beginnings of the great falling away.

    This is a tough world and people are looking for something that isn’t. Repentence is tough so let’s not hear about that. Let’s just talk about nice, godly attributes. About blessings. About how God wants to bless you! We serve a good God! He wants the BEST for YOU! YOU can command blessings to come forth in Jesus’ name! You can…

    I start to get nauseous when I remember I used to believe this junk.

    You want blessings? Read your Bible. Pray with your mouth in Jesus’ name. Talk to God. Confess your sin. Be humble before Him. If you get blessings in this life, great. If you don’t? Great. I will serve Him and whether I see blessings here or there, I know He gave His life for me. What more could I want or need?

  5. Eli says:

    @ Mike Larsen….brother I wonder the SAME thing every day. How much longer Lord, how much longer? I’ll be surprised if we’re still here a year from now.

  6. David North says:

    I think it is a message for the time right now as well as the core message of Christ. A lot of critics today blast Billy Graham (for a multitude of reasons) but as a young man, his messages hit me between the eyes as hard as Paul Washer’s message here does (though Paul’s message here is hard to beat for “directness”). The idea that hell existed and was ineveitable and that God didn’t care about my feelings, reasons or excuses about it leaped out at me at that young age (and still does).

    The message of Hell is targeted at exactly what Paul emphasises here…that one’s relationship with Christ has to be absolute and selfless and fully commited–that there is no “middle road”…it is His way or no way. A big push–not just with preachers of the “soft gospel”– but with secular and other religion’s critics of Christianity is the push to soften the Gospel and to repudiate things such as “Hell” and an “absolute” judgment. This is done in the name of “Love” but it’s end result to is to eliminate the need for Christ to do more than just “love you”. No judgment, no authority, no challenge and no consequence.

    What is truly missing and the thing that most grieves me is that the place of the public evangelist is rapidly vanishing. Message’s such as Paul’s are almost nearly confined within churches and heard almost exclusively by Christians alone. As bad as the internet is, this is it’s one saving grace–it has the potential and chance to reach the world and I am glad such a person I otherwise would never have known or heard is here.

    What I marvel at, along with the angels, is that the mesage of Christ is Love. With all of the soberness and severity and warnings and dangers and judgements, that is His…God’s…core motivation in relating to mankind. I cringe at this message but I cringe more when I hear the “it’s all good” messages. To get to Christ, we must face and pass through the hell we all deserve. We have to see what state we are in and we have to accept that our life is simply a long, repeated choice of commitments to Him or oursleves…with a decision to be rendered regarding our choice when our lives here reach their end.

    I did a study years back on 2 Timothy 4:3 where it is stated, “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears”. When you break down the core definitions of the words used in “not endure sound doctrine” it can be paraphrased as, “Will not forcefully and repeatedly hold themselves up against the truth”. that is what Paul Washer addresess here. Will we accept Truth? Will we endure the sting of it? Will we submit to it?

  7. Frank says:

    Paul Washer is wrong according to Scripture. Christ said, “no one shall pluck them from my hands.” Once someone is a believer, they are Christ’s. Just because someone is backslidden and then dies does not mean they were never a true believer. Many people like Washer that are self-righteous actually believe in sinless perfection.

    Christ said, “go and sin no more”. Not, “go and sin no more, but if you do, you’re going to hell.”

    Paul Washer believes that you can lose your salvation.

    Christian liberty is not a license to sin, it is the grace of God that keeps us IF we sin.

    • Chrystal says:

      Frank,

      If they’re saved to begin with, which is the point Washer makes in his sermons. Jesus said there would be many in that day who would say, “Lord, Lord…” but would not enter in. They thought they were saved, but weren’t.

  8. Recogniser of TRUTH says:

    Frank please listen to Paul Washer (and Chrystal). The ‘once saved always saved’ message is A LIE.

    Scripture clearly declares there will be a falling away, and is addressing Christians. If it were not so, who exactly will fall away, and from what?
    Also, Revelation clearly warns us that our names will be ‘blotted out’ if we do not persevere in the faith and overcome. It is a very serious matter and PW is right on.

  9. Mike Larsen says:

    Recogniser, you are very wrong about the salvation issue. The “falling away” is not about apostasy. You need to study the original language AND the incredible number of passages declaring the security of TRUE believers. Do you really think that Jesus went back to heaven to prepare rooms for people that would then become vacant because someone decided to turn away? This passage about falling away is so often misquoted and it’s always from lack of understanding of Greek and the historical record, as well as the very pertinent need to interpret Scripture with Scripture.

    Many will come before Jesus and say, “Lord, Lord” and yet He didn’t respond by saying, “Depart from me; I USED TO know you.” He said, “I NEVER knew you.” Do you realize how many things have to be UNDONE for a person to lose their salvation? It’s ridiculous to think that God is so weak as to not be able to secure those whom HE has chosen. The term “falling away” (2 Thess. 1) that you speak of was introduced into the KJV of 1611. For the previous 1500 years it was always rendered as DEPARTURE and is in reference to what we now call the Rapture. The word “apostasia” is the feminine form of the Greek work “apostacion”, which itself is the neuter form of “aphistemi,” which means “to remove, withdraw self, restrain, or desist.” Interestingly enough, the word “apostacion” appears only three times and always in reference to divorce; not the Americanized version of apostasy. The root word, “aphistemi”, on the other hand, is used to refer to withdrawing or departing from iniquity, ungodly men, the temple, the body, and from people (as in the case of the angel leaving Peter after delivering him from prison).

    This isn’t a passage about Christians falling away; it’s a passage about Christians being TAKEN AWAY, as it DEPARTING, just as the context dictates, and the context is the day of the Lord. Keep in mind that the book of 2 Thess. was written by Paul for the sole purpose of letting that angst-ridden church in Thessalonica know that they hadn’t missed the day of the Lord as they had been misled to believe. If you pull it out of it’s context, you can make it say the it refers to Christians departing from the faith. I contend that TRUE, born-again believers WON’T depart from the faith; indeed, they CAN’T depart from the faith. How can that which is secured by the blood of Christ and sealed by the Holy Spirit be unsecured by the works of the flesh when it is by GRACE that we are saved; not works. And unbelief is a work. Jesus Himself said that NO ONE could snatch us out of His hands. Is He such a weak Saviour that He’d allow you or me to take ourselves out of that which He secured by His Spirit? I think not. It so very much cheapens the grace of God and calls into question the efficacy of Christ as the propitiation for our sins. Becoming UN-born again is not even remotely biblical. To be able to do that would mean we, by our actions or words, would have within us the power to nullify the perfect and complete work of Christ on the cross. THAT just isn’t possible.

    Here is a post I put up on a forum I moderate about this very issue. I welcome anyone and everyone to see if I have misstated anything. It’s just a portion of the entire article I wrote:

    Galatians tells us that we have been crucified with Christ and it is no longer we who live, but Christ lives in us (2.20). To lose my salvation would mean I become UN-crucified with Christ (Gal. 2.20). I become UN-hidden (Col. 3.3). I become an UN-holy nation, an UN-royal priesthood, UN-born again, UN-peculiar (1 Pet. 2.9), UN-grafted (Rom. 11.23), UN-filled with the Spirit (Eph. 5.18), no longer a child of God (Rom. 8.14-15), erased from the Book of Life (Php 4.3), no longer a friend of God (John 15.15), UN-justified (Rom. 5.1), UN-united (1 Cor. 6.17), no longer a new creation (2 Cor. 5.17); new things will become old (2 Cor. 5.17), no longer an heir (Gal. 4.6,7), no longer God’s workmanship (Eph. 2.10), no longer a citizen of heaven (Eph. 2.19), no longer a member of Christ’s body (1 Cor. 12.27), no longer united to the Lord and one spirit with Him (1 Cor. 6.17), no longer a temple of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 3.16; 1 Cor. 6.19), no longer the righteousness of God in Christ (2 Cor. 5.21), no longer enslaved to God (Rom. 6.22), no longer chosen and ordained by Christ to bear fruit (John 15.16), no longer the salt of the earth (Matt. 5.13), no longer the light of the world (Matt. 5.14), no longer part of the true vine (John 15.1-2), no longer filled with the divine nature of Christ (2 Pet. 1.4), no longer an expression of the life of Christ (Col. 3.4), no longer chosen of God, holy and dearly loved (Col. 3.12), no longer a child of light (1 Thess. 5.5), no longer a partaker of the heavenly calling (Heb. 3.1), no longer more than a conqueror (Rom. 8.37), no longer a partaker with Christ and sharing in His life (Heb. 3.14), no longer one of God’s living stones (1 Pet. 2.5), no longer an enemy of the devil (1 Pet. 5.8), no longer an alien and a stranger to this world (1 Pet. 2.11), no longer seated in heavenly places in Christ (Eph. 2.6), no longer saved by grace (Eph. 2.8), no longer a recipient of every spiritual blessing in heavenly places in Christ (Eph. 1-6 – The WHOLE book), no longer redeemed by the blood of the lamb (Rev. 5.9), no longer a part of the Bride of Christ (Rev. 19.7), and no longer a true worshiper who worships the Father in spirit and in truth (John 4.24).

    If you REALLY want to believe that can all be undone, I feel sorry for you because you must live in abject fear of losing your salvation BASED UPON YOUR WORKS, rather than knowing that you are saved SOLELY by His grace through faith.

    In His service,

    Mike

  10. Mike Larsen says:

    Frank,

    Can you show video or written words of Paul Washer where he says he believes you can lose your salvation or that he believes in sinless perfection? I’ve listened to tons of his messages and have yet to hear him articulate either belief. I know he HAS said that he walks with the Lord and presses on TOWARD perfection but won’t reach that until he gets to heaven.

    And as for his being self-righteous, how do you support that accusation?

    In His service,

    Mike

  11. David says:

    Amen to that! What PW says is the truth. So many preachers are busy propogating this “once save always saved” lie as not to offend anyone. To those sorts of preachers, being popular with the members of their church is more important that being true shepherds. This is what the Scriptures say regarding preachers like Joel Osteen:

    “Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall”. I Corinthians 10:12 KJV

  12. G. Fischer says:

    “falling away” is speaking of the rapture not turning away from God. A real conversion means a real change because of what God has done for us through His ONLY Son Jesus Christ. When you’ve relized you haven’t met God’s perfect standard and know there is NO possibility you can enter Heaven then you must recieve by faith God’s free gift of eternal life. Many people hear but never commit to living their new life in Christ. And remember we can only live that new life through the power of the Holy Spirit and not within our selves (we will fail every time).

  13. Jeanette says:

    Thanks Mike for you clarification on salvation. If God chose those who would be saved from the foundation of the world and Jesus paid for their sins how could they be lost?

    I would also like to know if Paul Washer has ever said a true believer can lose his/her salvation. I have heard him say that the altar call is the cause of many people being in hell. That would put the hearers’ salvation in the hands of the preacher giving the altar call. That doesn’t seem scriptural. That’s like saying if I say something wrong about the gospel I might cause someone to go to hell. My actions and my words just aren’t that powerful. God is sovereign.

  14. Recogniser of TRUTH says:

    OSAS is a highly divisive topic, of which I have no intention of becoming embroiled in,

    BUT……………….

    Words of JESUS to BELIEVERS “I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no-one will take your crown” Rev: 3 – 11

    “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by KNOWING our Lord & Saviour Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than at the beginning . It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it………..” 2 Peter 2: 20/21

    “The spirit clearly says that in latter times some will ABANDON THE FAITH and follow deceiving spirits” 1 Tim 4: 1

    “See to it brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that TURNS AWAY from the Living God………” Heb 3: 12

    “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have TASTED THE HEAVENLY GIFT, who have SHARED IN THE HOLY SPIRIT, who have TASTED the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age . IF THEY FALL AWAY, to be bought back to repentance, because TO THEIR LOSS they are crucifying the Son of God all over again…….” Heb 6: 4-6

    Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most WILL GROW COLD, BUT HE WHO STANDS FIRM TO THE END will be saved. Matt 24: 12/13

  15. Ruitje says:

    @Recognizer of Truth, thanks for the biblequotes. I had those verses also in mind when people say that believers can not fall away. Scripture is clear. In Revelation 14:12 is written that the saints who will endure are those who obey God and hold on to the testimony of Jesus.

  16. Michael says:

    I guess if being once saved and always saved is a LIE, then Jesus must be deluded to think that He is able to keep those whom He has called; just as He said He would. Food for thought.

  17. Jeanette says:

    “All the father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven , not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.” John 6:37-9

  18. Ruitje says:

    Paul Washer is speaking in some sermons about people who may be never really have been born again. They respond to an altarcall, but they go on living like they did before and are not changed and regenerated. If we are really born again, than there must be a change and the proces of living a holy life starts. There must be fruit and a renewing of the mind.

    And Hebr. 6:4-6 (see comment from Recogniser) is very clear I think…

  19. Recogniser of TRUTH says:

    Amen Ruitje, there are so many more scriptures I could have posted. I used to believe in OSAS myself until I searched scripture for myself and was astounded to discover how much I had to unlearn what I heard and followed from mere men.
    I truly have no abject fear of losing my salvation (by my works) as has been suggested. On the contrary, the knowledge that we must run the race, persevere and overcome until the end, excites me, secures me, leads me on. It keeps me ever vigilant to deception, so I WILL CLAIM THE PRIZE. The road is narrow, and we certainly can be enticed, seduced and robbed of our salvation.

  20. Mike Larsen says:

    That’s all well and good, ROT, but the logical end to your conclusion is that Christ died for you and now His ability to save has now been taken out of His hands and given back to you and now your salvation is no longer dependent upon HIS ability to keep you but upon YOUR ability to stay saved. The Bible says no such thing.

    In His service,

    Mike

  21. David says:

    @ Mike Larsen. This is what the scriptures clearly teach regarding the “once saved always saved” doctrine:

    “For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world though the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein and overcome, the latter end with them is worse than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it has happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit, The sow that was washed to wallow in the mire”. II Peter 2: 20 – 22 KJV

    As you can clearly see, it isn’t God who forsakes man, but man that forsakes God! The danger of the OSAS doctrine is it creates a stumbling block for new or weak Christians. It opens the door for the devil by createing a sense of false security. It’s “Now I’m Saved! I’ve made it!” Well as much as you are seriously not going to like what I’m about to say, here is the real truth of the matter. At his point in time, we have been redeemed by the precious blood of Our Lord and saviour Jesus. However, we’re still walking around in imperfect bodies and in a world full of sin. We need to be on guard against the wiles of the devil on a daily basis. You have I have no idea what we will be doing tomorrow. You might say “Yes I do. I’m going to go to work at this time, I have a lunch break scheduled at this time, and I’ll return home at this time”. The truth is, you have no idea what tomorrow will bring! Only God does. You don’t know that tomorrow one of your children will be brutally murdered and you will fall away from God blaming him. Anything can happen, and when (not if) The Lord puts us to the test, we need to be standing on the Rock of Christ as a foundation, not stitting back saying “Halleluah! I’m saved” and then living a luke warm wishy-washy life! The OSAS doctrine is scriptually unsound and is built on the sands of false doctrine! When you are with The Lord in person and literally in His Presence inHeaven, then you can shout “Halleluah! I’m saved!” Until then, you need to keep humble before the Lord, and have respect for the reality that at some stage in your Christian wallk, Jesus WILL put you and your faith to the test. If you’re “already saved” then how come you can have your name blotted out of The Book of Life? (Rev 3:5)

  22. Ruitje says:

    @Mike, it is not in our ability to stay saved and make the work of Christ worthless, but the question is if we are really born again. If so, we want to obey Christ and let the Holy Spirit lead us in truth. And when the Spirit shows us that we have sinned, we have to confess and He will forgive us (like John writes in one of his letters). But is we do not repent, and let sin have its way, than we see what James writes that sin will end in death. Or you will be saved but than it will be through the fire (Korintians).

    What do you think about Hebr. 6:4-6?

  23. Recogniser of TRUTH says:

    Mike on the whole we agree on most things, but on this we do have a difference of interpretation. And it is just that. We can differ and still share the love of the Lord Jesus and each other. It is a bit like the ‘name & claim it’ topic. I personally know people who loved and served the Lord and radiated His glory in their lives, who died of an illness (because sovereign God called them home) to have people say they need not have died. I also personally know people who loved and served the Lord and radiated His glory in their lives, who have turned away from where they were. I pray fervently for them to have their faith restored to them yet find it so much harder once they have KNOWN HIM. Satan is after US the redeemed in these last days. Deception is rife. I know you agree about this by good comments you have posted. :)

    Be blessed brother.

  24. Carolyn says:

    How did we end up on OSAS? But here we are. So here’s my 2 cent’s worth.
    I did not hear any refutation of scripture that clearly states that we can abandon the faith. I too do not wish to be enbroiled in an argument. My opinion is a “take it or leave it” position, as many of you already know all the arguments. I just felt like going out on a limb today. I don’t have to be right…I’ve been wrong before, but Scripture is always right.
    I think that OSAS is a carefully crafted dogma. And it has to work very hard to explain itself (which raises a red flag for me from the beginning). It reminds me of the carefully crafted dogmas of Seventh Day Adventism. Wow…they can hog tie you into the law in a thousand different ways with “fine sounding arguments” and there is no way you are getting free on your own. All their arguments are way better than anybody else’s. It took an honest heart, the Holy Spirit and the Word to untangle me.
    My point is that FAITH is what Christ is after. And I do believe that we still have the power to give that up. We can abandon the faith because the Word says we can. If we were held hostage after we regretted the decision to become a Christian, what kind of faith would that be? Faith is a freedom by its very defintion.
    Galatians 5:1
    [ Freedom in Christ ] It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
    I don’t believe that God ever takes that choice from us. I know there are a hundred and sixty arguments that prove that we cannot be taken out of God’s hand…but that is because we remain committed to his grace…not his law…but his grace. And he most certainly will be faithful to keep us by that grace that we trust in…despite any mistakes, or disappointments or misunderstandings, failures, etc. etc. on our part.
    All the arguments of OSAS are true of someone WHO KEEPS CHOOSING TO WALK IN GRACE, BY FAITH IN CHRIST JESUS.
    WE ARE NOT ROBOTS; WE ARE NOT FOLLOWERS OF PROGRAMMED ANALYSIS
    Also true, is the fact that we are not rejected or accepted on any merit of our own.
    We are His completely and unquestionably as long as we choose him.
    Why would Satan work so hard to push us to abandon our faith if it was not possible to do so? I have been pushed many times to the brink of making that choice and my faith has been tested. Sometimes it seems IMPOSSIBLE to keep my faith, but not impossible with God. Sometimes I am really angry with God when the Accuser has pointed out that God could do something about my suffering but he doesn’t care. Much like Job.
    Could Job have taken himself out of God’s care?…apparently he could have. His wife told him how. But his faith was genuine and remained stedfast in God, not himself, through all the fiery trial.
    Satan could not budge his belief in God because his faith was not based on his circumstances or personal dogmas. These all melted in the heat of his trials. All that was left was a loyalty to God and his Word, proved when he said “though he slay me, yet will I trust him”.
    His friends however, had their dogmas that they berrated him with. And God was not pleased. Of course they were making God out to be a tyrant with a heavy hand; a legalistic, perfectionist God who demanded righteousness from his people and who meeted out punishment for those who did not perform in the expected ways.
    Well, God showed himself to Job. He was neither what his friends where advocating nor was he what Job was fearing.
    THE ONLY THING THAT GOD WAS WANTING FROM JOB WAS FAITH IN THE GOD WHO CREATED AND DESIGNED ALL THINGS AND WHO HAS IMMEASURABLE GRACE TO SUSTAIN EVERYTHING BY HIS GREAT POWER AND LOVE. When Satan took from Job, every last reason for living, would he abandon his faith in God because God had not measured up to his ideals, or would he humble himself and repent of his ignorance of the truth as revealed by God himself? He chose the latter. And God was pleased.
    Today I read about someone abandoning the faith because the gospel did not work for him anymore. So he was transforming God into his ideas. His God would not fit his definitions and stipulations. The Christ of the Gospel was silenced from his mind. He had the freedom to choose the God of the Word or the God of his mind. He chose the latter. And God was not pleased.

  25. Recogniser of TRUTH says:

    Bless you David, amongst the myriad of scriptures, 2 Peter 2: 20 – 22 is so serious. Yet many people wash over it, why?………sigh!

    Your comment is very succinct.

  26. WatEenZooitje says:

    Very interesting matter, that OSAS issue. But I have some cases. Not to attack or condemn but out of curiosity about your opinions.

    Case 1: A sinner comes to Christ. After his conversion he is starting to serve God, through ministry, reading the bible, having a relationship with Him. But at a certain point in his life, things are getting very tough. Ultimately, the person gets bitter with God and he doesn’t want to do anything with Jesus anymore. And….he is switching sides. Because of his disappointments in God and life, he is trying to do it lucifer’s way. So he becomes a satan worshipper. If this person dies, will he be saved?

    Case 2: A person accepts Jesus in a huge evangelism rally. He is one of the millions who also gave his life to Christ. But, as soon as he is home, he resumes his life. In this example by being a drunk, a cheater and wife/child abuser. He accepted Jesus only as a sort of insurance policy. The message at the rally didn’t tell anything about repentance of sin, only that Jesus saves and will make your life better and prosperous. This person dies. Will he be saved?

    Case 3: A person says that he is a christian and born-again. He gave his life to Christ at an early age. Yet he hate Israel and the Jewish people. He considers them as fallen away and rejected by God because they have crucified Jesus. The church have taken over their place as God’s people. The fact that Jesus is a Jew is being denied. This person dies. Is he saved?

    Case 4: A person in a certain country comes to Christ. However, in this country, religion, in this case christianity, is mixed up with occult practices. It is a custom to do so. He worship God and Jesus but also the influences of his culture. Is that person saved. (Haïti-Christianity&Voodoo; Asian countries-Christianity&ancestral worship; Roman Catholic church-Christianity&Idol worship;Jews&Kabbalah etc)

    Once again, it is not for discussion. It is just to discover some point of views about this subject.

  27. Mike Larsen says:

    Gosh, I could write about this OSAS topic for days and use a library of Scriptures to support my position. As for 2 Peter 2.20-22, if it’s been ignored, it’s not been by me. I’ll deal with any and all passages you wish to discuss but I suspect that this isn’t the forum for that. However, if Chrystal will permit, I WILL provide you my “washed over” interpretation of that passage because I DON’T WASH OVER PASSAGES. It’s called rightly dividing the Word and ALL passages must be dealt with in their context AND with a proper understanding of the original language; not our westernized butchering of certain passages from some versions of the Bible that are heretical at best. But that’s a discussion for another day……

    As to 2 Peter, it says

    2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
    2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

    Remember; context is King. To take those two verses out of context, one can easily build a doctrine of losing one’s salvation but those verses are tied in expressly and irrevocably with all of chapter 2. The entire chapter is about people who are not even remotely saved. In fact, it’s about those who have been labeled as “wells without water.” The chapter is about abject wickedness and those who come in as false prophets and false teachers, OBVIOUSLY never saved. They come in to sway people away from the Gospel with their damnable heresies. They are those who have KNOWLEDGE of Christ, even how to be saved, and yet the context of the chapter is that they never reached that point. They know the way and may have even started to live rightly (but not necessarily saved because we know from Jesus own words in the parable of the sower that only one out of four of the seeds that fell on various types of soil responded to the Gospel in a saving way). Would you deny that many people come very close to accepting the Lord but then get pulled away by various things in their lives? It wasn’t the seed that was bad; it was the soil; the person’s heart.

    Be that as it may, those spoken of in the context of this passage have that same knowledge and so now they are accountable to God for it. To reject it is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit and yet no Christian can do such a thing. The latter end is surely worse because now they know that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life and yet they reject it. If they die without ever knowing that, they still receive condemnation but we know too that there are degrees of punishment in Hell. It will much worse for those who trample the name of the Lord by rejecting Him once they have the knowledge of His saving grace, His propitiation for sin.

    Remember the man Jesus spoke of in Matt. 12.45? He got his act together, cleaned up his life, yada yada yada, but it is obvious that he didn’t know the Saviour. The evil spirit left and then came back to find the man empty, swept, and garnished and the demon came back with seven demons even worse than himself and the man’s condition was worse afterward. Human ability would allow people to clean up their lives, play church on Sunday, etc., and yet they can go through life not knowing Christ as their personal Saviour. That’s pretty much a no-brainer there. We all probably know people that play church and maybe even go through the motions. That does not a Christian make.

    And what does it mean to KNOW THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS? Many people KNOW the way. It doesn’t mean they ever follow it and give Christ control of their lives. Indeed, one must know the way before they can reject it altogether.

    In summary, I just don’t think this is a very good passage showing one losing their salvation. I would be more than happy to cover the others but again, this thread isn’t about OSAS. I would just ask you to consider one passage and tell me how it can be undone. Consider Hebrews 10.14. It says,

    Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

    WE are them that are sanctified; here and now. This isn’t a passage in reference to our existence in Heaven. He will perfected us forever. Indeed, our salvation and the plethora of passages concerning our eternal state are spoken of in the present tense. We don’t have to keep guessing about our salvation until our dying breath. Even Jude 1.1 says we are preserved in Christ. Who does that? Who preserves us? And is He so weak that He can’t preserve us? If so, why did He fill our heads with ideas that He can?

    Anyway, this is another doctrine that will go unanswered in the hearts and minds of many until the Lord finally straightens everyone out concerning His power to keep and save that which THE FATHER has given Him. What of John 10.25-30? Is Jesus lying when He ways that NO MAN shall pluck those out of His hand that the Father has given Him? Rather, He says that His sheep know His voice and I GIVE UNTO THEM ETERNAL LIFE. How can He promise eternal life if He can’t also promise us eternal security since it’s the Father that gave us unto Him in the first place?

    How can so many things be undone, as I asked before? No one has answered ANY of those things I pointed out. Show me where all that has become DONE by becoming saved can suddenly become undone.

    2Ti 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

    PRESERVE ME UNTO HIS HEAVENLY KINGDOM. A lie? A promise?

    In His service,

    Mike

  28. Recogniser of TRUTH says:

    Mike Larsen, I am sorry I seem to have ‘rattled your cage’, which was not my intention.
    I said “SO MANY PEOPLE wash over the myriad of scriptures”….. as 2 Peter 2: 20-22 and did not single you out and make it personal.
    Your lengthy retort reveals a lack of confidence in what you (wrongly) believe.
    Lets just leave it there. I have NO authority whatsoever in the subject and nor have you, the CLEAR SCRIPTURE has it all.

  29. Ruitje says:

    Mike you still haven’t told what you think about Hebrews 6:4-6. I would like to know what you think about that…

    And the question is: is someone really born again when he lives on like he did before he responded to an altarcall or made a choice for Jesus? When there is no fruit and no change? Maybe the ones who are not really born again fall away?

  30. steve says:

    what role do men have in their homes? refering from bible screptures. pease help me

  31. shane says:

    If you believe a true believer can lose their salvation then you call Jesus a liar and or a failure. If a true believer can “lose their salvation” then Jesus failed to the Father’s will in keeping all of those that He gave to Jesus or Jesus lied about coming to do the Father’s will and raising up all of those given to Him by the Father. Why call Jesus a failure and a liar?

    John6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
    John6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
    John6:39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
    John6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    As far as 2Peter2 you have to look at who it is that Peter is talking about. The answer is in verse 1. He is speaking of false teachers not believers. But I know all of the people that believe a true believer can lose their salvation or forfeit it will disagree. All I can say is just as Mike, context is king. Remember CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT. It makes a difference.

    It is very comforting to know that Jesus is not a failure and a liar and the atonement is 100% effective saving His people. Especially considering He continues to make intercession for us daily (Heb7:25).

    http://www.monergismbooks.com/pdfs/doctrines_of_grace_003.pdf

  32. Teresa says:

    Can’t loose something you never had. I believe the ones who are falling way are the ones who thought they were saved and were not. Where is our asssurance of salvation if we can loose it, just asking.

  33. Mike L. says:

    Ruitje,

    Sorry for not responding. I just didn’t want to hijack this thread and left that up to Chrystal. I would be more than happy to talk about Hebrews. Before I do that, let me just say that none of MY questions have been answered by ROT. All of my questions back to him have been deflected back to the “Mike, you are wrong” but not any Scripture to counter all that I’ve presented and I haven’t even begun to write all of the Scriptures supporting how TRUE believers are secure. I’m not sure what ROT meant by us having NO authority on the subject. We have the Holy Spirit and we have the Word of God and so we have ALL authority to deal with the subject. We are told that we have all that we need for life and Godliness and we have a plethora of Scriptures that speak of just how we are to rightly divide the Word of Truth and, in fact, it is a weapon of our warfare; the sword of the Spirit. What more authority are you looking for, ROT?

    Anyway, back to your question concerning Hebrews. Once again, context is king. Let me just point out, for starters, that NONE of the words used in this passage are used anywhere else in Scripture when speaking of salvation. In fact, as I stated much earlier in my posts, one must look at the Greek because translating to English without understanding the Greek leads to misinterpretation. Salvation is never called enlightenment, it is never called tasting the Spirit of God, it is never called tasting the powers of the age to come, it is never called tasting the good Word of God. Those are references to having an intellectual perception. The context of this passage begins back in chapter 5. The author was talking to believers but often you’ll find the insertion of words of warning to unbelievers that lived side-by-side with the recipients of the book of Hebrews. He tells the readers back in chapter 5 that they should be teachers by now. Instead, he has to point out that they need to move on to perfection. Bible scholars have shown this word, “perfection”, to mean salvation. I think the author was talking to the fence-sitters who knew the message. Paul has to take them back to the ABC’s; the basics, as it were.

    Let me also point out that you have to take verses 7 and 8 into the context. The rain of the gospel falls and from it come not only herbs but also thorns and briers, which are to be burned. He is saying, “With all you know, if you turn your back on this, you could never be saved. Why? Because if you reject with such full light, how could you ever be saved? John MacArthur has this to say about it: What is enlightenment? Intellectual understanding, right? What does it mean to taste the heavenly gift? Who’s the heavenly gift? Really the Holy Spirit? How could these people have tasted the Holy Spirit? If you ever sat in a church and heard the Word of God preached with power, you’ve tasted the Holy Spirit. If you ever seen a life changed you’ve tasted the Holy Spirit. If you ever saw a miracle done by Jesus you’ve tasted the Spirit because He did everything by the power of the Spirit, right? And you are partaker of the Holy Spirit if you stood on a hillside when Jesus fed 5000 and ate a fish and a little cracker, you partook of the power of the Holy Spirit.

    There is much more to be said about it but I feel like this isn’t about a constructive conversation about salvation so much as it is a continuous attempt to call so many passages of Scripture about the perseverance of the believer a lie. The Scriptures don’t need me to defend them. I still submit, though, that no one has shown me any Scriptures that show how all that has be DONE by the once-for-all sacrifice of Christ to those who believe on His name can suddenly become UNDONE. We were saved by grace through faith. How do we then become unsaved by something that didn’t gain us salvation in the first place, nor does it have anything to do with it?

    In His service,

    Mike

  34. Mike Larsen says:

    ROT: You said the following:

    Your lengthy retort reveals a lack of confidence in what you (wrongly) believe.

    My “lengthy retort” as you call it is called dividing the Word of truth and has nothing to do with my lack of confidence. In fact, YOUR lack of answering ANY of my questions while I freely answer yours shows YOUR lack of ability to support your position. You keep deflecting my questions with blather such as this. I will not be posting any further on this subject because it seems clear that you are not interested in a civil and theological discussion of the matter. Rather, you seem to want to call the Scriptures I use for proof as “lies” concerning a doctrine very easily defensible with more Scripture than this forum is designed to deal with. When will you show the readers where the Scriptures refute all that I’ve shown as to what has to be undone for one to lose their salvation, which Scripture clearly shows is SEALED by the Holy Spirit and even Jesus said NO ONE would pluck us out of His hands? Is Jesus a liar?

    Thanks for entertaining this diversion from the topic, Chrystal. I am done with this because it’s unfruitful and I do apologize for it.

    In His service,

    Mike

  35. Teresa says:

    Jeanette, I to have listened to lots of sermons from Paul Washer. I have heard his preach and talk about how pastor or evangelist willuse psychological manipulation on people to get them to the alter. Here it is

    I can not answer for Paul Washer, however I can say from everthing that is in me that Paul Washer has never said not teaches that a “TRUE BELIEVER” can loose their salvation. The Scripture you quoted from John 6:37-39 was so good, thank you.

    Mike Larson I a with you my friend, God Bless

Comments are closed.