Those Who Turn Away from the Truth to Follow Strange Fire

I have a question…

As the title of this post suggests, I am wondering about those people who not only walked in truth, but exposed error.  What is to be said of them if they turn away from sound Biblical truth and fully embrace false doctrine?  By false doctrine I mean the doctrine of such folks as Patricia King, John Crowder, Rick Joyner, etc.

We often hear of people who are snared by deception who have their eyes open, turn away from it, and repent.  I am one of those people.  But what if the opposite happens?  What if I were to suddenly turn on a dime, announce that what I believed was wrong, and I’m gonna go see Todd Bentley tonight and get me a snoot full of that drunken glory.  What’s to be said then?

Let’s talk about it…

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58 Responses to Those Who Turn Away from the Truth to Follow Strange Fire

  1. Doug says:

    Hi Chrystal-On our Sunday nights at church we are often joined by friends from the AG church, including Bill, who claims that he was brought up Baptist, but went Pentecostal decades ago.
    I respect Bill’s Bible knowledge, but we believe differently on some things. Example-I just ‘searched’ your blog for Sid Roth-Bill believes that Roth is right on, a solid Bible teacher. I think Roth is actually satanic. I can’t give other examples, as I haven’t asked Bill about Hinn, Joyner, King, etc. As a guest in our church, I won’t argue with him during our fellowship time.
    But, if he were ‘brought up Baptist’, he would fit the model of this post.
    What do we think of those who were on solid ground, but have moved onto the shifting sands?
    This has been on my mind lately. I think that God extends His Grace to us all, and for His own good reasons He leaves some of His children in the ‘temporary custody’ of the legalistic error filled churches.
    I’m not suggesting that God wants them to stay, live and die there, but some do, even if we think that God’s Holy Spirit should refuse to leave His children in error.
    I’ll call him Jud. Jud has been a Christian for nearly twice my lifetime, and has battled many many problems. His weaknesses and problems have been a warning to me and others, that if we allow our sin natures to rule us, we are asking for troubles and heartaches, as what we sow, so shall we reap.
    It could be that the Pentecostals are like a bumper on the left side of the road, helping to keep us on the straight and narrow by giving us an close up example of error. Look to ancient Israel-usually when the false prophets were walking large, fooling the people, it brought about a response from God which caused the people to turn back to Him. There-I’ve said my said.

  2. Mike A says:

    A woman who my wife and I once cinsidered a friend, turned away from sound doctrine about 2 years ago; perhaps ust about the time Lakeland was happening. Briefly, she has(had?) knowledge of the scriptures but got caught up in the experiences (times of prayer, times of deep worship) and begain to equate holiness with a feeling (the goosebumps from a song or from having someone pray).

    My wife truly believes a demonic spirit was imparted to her at Lakeland…I am not so quick to sound that alarm, though it could be. (She had a hard time receiving forgivenss from Christ for her past sin and was always teetering on works based theology, though she did “understand” what scripture says).

    The end result ???

    About 18 months ago she fled her husband and home for 6 weeks, claiming that God told her to go, that he had a special minsitry for her and was going to show her the spritual realm so she would be prepared. When she came back, my wife tried to reason throught he scriptures with her, myself and a n Elder tried, as well as at least half a dozen other women. The net result: she fled to Virgina for a year. During this year she was part of a “Spiritual Cleansing Ministry” that sought to dig into the mind and bring up past sins (whether yours or those done to you) and “free” you from the burden. her husband tolder her to get staright before she came home….she called for a plane ticket after 1 year and he, loving her and hoping for the best sent it to her.

    Unfortuantely, all is not well. In the 6 months since her return, she did not return to work as he requested (school teacher by trade) and after initially just coming to church and “being fed” she has decided to seek out a church that “fits” her theology better. Her husband (who is so new in belief that her experiences have confudes him greatly) had enough and asked her to leave until she came back to her senses. (fortunately they have no children).

    She lives at a shelter for abused women, because she will not go back to work (or take any job) because she belives God has this special “prophetic” ministry for her.

    It is so sad to see what should have been a very hurt, and wounded woman throw all her chips in on an emotional high. She truly BELIEVES that God showed her “special” revelation and to disobey would be sinful (never returning to the Bible to see what it says.) She now searches for a verse to taken out of context to fit her agend….she has truly been deceived and refuses to repent (She now believes in a completely different Jesus).

    As an A/G pastor, it pains me to see such things occur, yet I cannot change her – only God can. Once again, I am CHARISMATIC…I am not a CHARISMANIAC (as Pastor Chuck Smith ala Calvary Chapel would say).

    Thank you Chrystal for this forum!

  3. Robert says:

    Not trying to shift the blame and responsibility from belivers in Christ , but pastors who don’t faithfully preach from the Bible will ultimately produce congregations that are more apt to trust the fallible words of men over the infallible Word of God.

    I like what Mike Gendron had to say:

    ” Numerous warnings in Scripture tell us the church will be bombarded with perverse teachings, empty philosophy, vain deceit, speculations, lying spirits, worldly fables, false knowledge, doctrines of demons, destructive heresies, myths, falsehoods, traditions of men and worldly wisdom. Jesus and Paul warned of false prophets who would come in as wolves in sheep’s clothing not sparing the flock (Matthew 7:15; Acts 20:29). We must do as Jesus and the apostles did and warn Christians of these destructive influences, all of which are weakening the church and bringing shame to the precious name of our Savior!

    When sound doctrine is replaced with shallow teaching made up of humorous stories and shallow opinions, you will find biblical illiteracy in the pew. New babes in Christ have difficulty growing in the grace and knowledge of their Savior when pastors do not preach the whole counsel of God. When the Word of God is not being faithfully taught, people will not hear truth. And if they don’t hear truth, they will be unable to discern God’s way from man’s way, truth from error and right from wrong. We must all become more discerning because no man is infallible and no preacher is beyond the possibility of doctrinal error. We must always be ready to reject what is false and hold fast to what is true. As disciples of Jesus we must be known for what we’re for as well as what we’re against. “

  4. Denise says:

    If a person goes to heretics/blasphemers and shortly returns to the Truth, then God had mercy on their souls. But to have the truth, to proclaim the truth, then to reject it, is to show the hardness of heart and unbelief; there were issues before they abandoned the truth–it was just a matter of time before God revealed it. They’re exit from biblical truth reveals they were never of Christ; rather they were just on an intellectual pursuit and gave up on Truth and gave in to error. Perhaps, they were prideful to think it was impossible for them to be deceived themselves. Over time, they will continue to get worse–more ungodly–because they have rejected the Truth.

    2Jo 1:9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.

    1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

    Mar 13:22 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform signs and wonders, to lead astray, if possible, the elect.

    Joh 10:4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5 A stranger they will not follow, but THEY WILL FLEE FROM HIM, for they do not know the voice of strangers.” [caps my emphasis]

    Also, church discipline (Matt. 18:15-18) would reveal if the person is truly saved or not. Being confronted of their error yet they remain unrepentant all the way to being excommunicated from their local church is a sign that they are not of HIM. If they repent, likely they finally got saved. I say this
    based on the verses above.

    This of course, is different than those who are ignorant. The ignorant don’t know much and therefore are easy victims for false teachers. But to have the truth, to promote it, teach it, then abandon it…to abandon the Once For All Faith, is to commit treason against the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

  5. Ron Larson says:

    Someone posted this bit of insanity on their Twitter account allegedly from Rick Joyner:
    Controversy helps to bring purity by removing the cowards. ~ Rick Joyner

    Comment really demosntrates the mind of a reprobate. Basically you disagree with our position to allow a man living in an adulterous marriage, if you confron the financial ponzi scheme tactics employed at Lakeland and Todd’s website. If you confron the enumerated heresies aspoused by the NAR and it’s ilk…you are a coward. Really now…

  6. Denise says:

    I know that God never wants His children to fellowship with those in error. I’d say Doug, that false prophets are a judgment of God, not a way to bring others into truth, for God doesn’t use lies for Truth.

    1Jo 2:21 I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and because no lie is of the truth.

    John 17: 17 Sanctify them in truth; Your word is truth.

    1Co 5:11 But now I am writing to you NOT TO ASSOCIATE with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler–not even to eat with such a one. [caps for emphasis only]

    And of course there is 2Cor. 6:14-18 about separating from darkness because there is no fellowship between those in that camp and those in Christ.

    As one who was deceived for years growing up in the Charismatic movement, I would suggest that it was sin to be in that awful error (and its more than mere Pentecostalism—-much of what we see today and is discussed here on this blog is occultism, mind control, and outright blasphemy). God for sure had mercy on my soul and I was not as involved in it as my mother was (I was a young girl through high school at the time). God did use those years of deception as a lesson to go only by His Word and to love Truth at all costs. But getting out of the deception was done by God removing me from it and placing me into a solid Bible teaching church where they literally taught verse by verse and God therefore corrected my error. It was through the preaching of the Word that I was shown the absolute error I was in as well as the treasure of truth that Scripture is. Perhaps this is what you mean as well.

    Joh 8:31 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

  7. Chrystal says:

    You’re welcome, Mike.

    I would like you all to consider this passage…

    1 John 2:18 – 19:

    18Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

    19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

  8. J:X says:

    I love what Paul Washer stated concerning ear ticklers, they tickle ears because they are raised up by God himself to lead those away WHO WANT THEIR EARS TICKLED!!

    Pharaoh was raised up by God as an instrument of destruction (Rom 9:17).

    Paul Washer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXcPLnKmBRQ

  9. C. L. Gregory says:

    Unless they repent and turn from the darkness they are in, they will die lost. You can’t drink a little bit of poison and not be a little bit dead.

    C. L. Gregory

  10. beyondgrace says:

    Mike A.,

    You may find this paper I wrote years ago on John Sandford and Elijah House counseling very helpful. Elijah house is one of those counseling “ministries” that digs deep in the past. If the ministry you mentioned did not use elijah house, it used something similar.

    http://home.ntelos.net/~archive/sandford.pdf

  11. Ron says:

    Before I comment,can you explain exactly what the definition of “strange fire” is? Based upon the original post I’m in agreement that the errors of Joyner,Crowder,etc…meet the definition but am not sure what else fits your definition of “strange fire”. Some of the comments suggest anything Pentecostal should also be included in this category.Is this accurate?

    Ron

  12. Mickey Merrie says:

    So many times in these comments, it can be seen that denominational teachings come out as biases in the posts. Is God divided? “I am of Wesley, I am of Calvin”…No the actual names are not used, but the teachings are. Yet everyone claims to follow the scriptures. Is any denomination right? Which one? Which one is free from the traditions of the elders Mark 7:89 and Matthew 15. What provision did Christ make for our spiritual education? Do we know? Of course we do. The Word of God and The Holy Spirit to teach us what Christ has for us. So why do we have denominations that neuter the Holy Spirit as if He has a diminished role today? Our provision for protection is to test the spirits! That means that the Holy Spirit and evil counterfeits are here today. We test the spirits by the Word of God in context.
    Thus, why do we argue over this? Because some denominations elevate the spiritual experience without testing the spirit to see if in fact it IS the Holy Spirit, or a signs and wonders whizbang. Then we have those who want nothing to do with following the Holy Spirit for fear of being mislead, or worse shunned by their legalistic denomination.
    The Holy Spirit IS FOR TODAY, as is the Word of God IN CONTEXT. Jesus is the Great Shepherd precisely because all others are wicked…why, because we are human…Our best work is as an under-shepherd who can hear by the Holy Spirit and the Word in context EXACTLY what Jesus has for HIS SHEEP submit to Him first and deal with it BEFORE we share it with others. Friends this is the moat we MUST deal with so that we can see clearly enough to remove the speck from others. Can you see this?!?! Further we must face the fact that those who are bent on following an experience as opposed to the King of Kings and Our only Lord Jesus Christ won’t listen to us no matter how convincing our plea, because they won’t listen or can’t listen to Him. Thus they are given over to these profaners as a judgement!
    Ahh but there is the rub…As watchman we are to sound the alarm, if they heed then we have done a good thing, but if they do not listen then it is on them….However, if we do not sound the alarm, then it is STILL on them, AND on us both. But what is our price…”They will hate you, because they hate Me.”
    as Jesus said.
    What good is a candle if it isn’t being burned up in the service of others to light their way? It costs the candle everything, and yet it only benefits others. Boy is that different from most all Amerikan ministry today.
    Let us get beyond our denominational biases and become the church that He alone is building. How? By following Paul as he lives by “not I but Christ.” ” Father that they would be on as We are one.” How? Jesus alone as Head and we as the parts of the body…Christ through me.

    Please direct your ecumenical thoughts in another direction as that is NOT what I am talking about, and is the lie of the evil one. Get rid of your denominational moat bias and serve Him as Lord…preach the gospel (Jesus’ life, death, resurrection, and why.) in season and out. We plant and water but Christ alone gives the increase….and we no not how!
    Your brother;
    Mickey Merrie
    He.must_increase@yahoo.com

  13. Denise says:

    Well Mickey, division is good in that it causes those who are like-minded to be together and not constantly cause friction with those that are not in agreement with them. Denominations are built on what a group of people believe to be true about Scripture (although many are wrong on particular issues). And may I say here, that a label, however horrific to you, is actually a good thing because it can generally tell me where a person is coming from theologically and it makes it easier marking off certain churches (when looking for a new one if needed) because of the same reason. Its not bad–its helpful.

    In my opinion, non-denominationalism is a denomination by the very definition of “denomination”: “a general name for a category; a religious organization whose congregations re united in their adherence to its beliefs and practices.”

    Within denominations there can be a group that is more liberal than the rest (like PCUSA is more liberal than PCA–presbyterianism); the Lutheran LCMS is more conservative than the ELS or WELS).

    I’m a Baptist (GARB) and I believe, as Spurgeon did, that Baptists historically have held to biblical doctrine (think: Believer’s Baptism, Authority of Scripture alone, autonomy of the local church, the Lord’s Table is symbolic and not actually the Lord’s body and blood, the distinction between church and state, Lordship salvation). A good run-down is here on Baptist history is here: http://www.pbministries.org/History/Goodwin_&_Frazier/churches_02.htm

    Spurgeon said:

    “We believe that the Baptists are the original Christians. We did not commence our existence at the reformation, we were reformers before Luther or Calvin were born; we never come from the Church of Rome, for we were never in it, but we have an unbroken line up to the apostles themselves. We have always existed from the very days of Christ, and our principles, sometimes veiled and forgotten, like a river which may travel underground for a little season, have always had honest and holy adherents. Persecuted alike by Romanists and Protestants of almost every sect, yet there has never existed a Government holding Baptist principles which persecuted others; nor, I believe, any body of Baptists ever held it to be right to put the consciences of others under the control of man. We have ever been ready to suffer, as our martyrologies will prove, but we are not ready to accept any help from the State, to prostitute the purity of the Bride of Christ to any alliance with Government, and we will never make the Church, although the Queen, the despot over the consciences of men.” (From The New Park Street Pulpit, Volume VII, page 225).

    This is actually getting off topic, but I wanted to address the “non-denomination denominationalism” because it basically argues the wrong point and generally is ignorant of history and Scripture.

  14. Rev's Kate & Rich M. says:

    Wow! Terrific responses from biblically educated people. We are teachers and with a great responsibility to proclaim God’s word … let us guard our hearts.

    Now, we must remember Galatians 6:10, “As we therefore have opportunity, let us do good unto all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believer’s” (NIV, Disciples Study Bible).

    God’s greatest blessings,
    Rev. K

  15. Ken Silva says:

    Chrystal,

    I just want to say thank you for the excellent work you’re doing here. :-)

  16. Chrystal says:

    I think the question I intended to pose from my initial post was this:

    Someone who once contended for the faith has been swept up by the very apostasy they once spoke against. What does that say about a person who would do this?

  17. Doug says:

    “I know that God never wants His children to fellowship with those in error. I’d say Doug, that false prophets are a judgment of God, not a way to bring others into truth, for God doesn’t use lies for Truth.”
    Posted by Denise on February 17, 2010 at 4:14 pm
    Agreed, Denise, but I’m still trying to wrap my mind around the fact that God does leave some of His children in Pentecostalism, sometimes for their entire lives. In my example with Bill, he comes and fellowships with us. I would no more go back to his (my old) church than I would go to the Catholics. Would you think that, if we were being proper, we should ask Bill and his mother to stay away from our Sunday nights fellowship? To not associate with them by not allowing them to associate with us?

    “I’m not suggesting that God wants them to stay, live and die there, but some do, even if we think that God’s Holy Spirit should refuse to leave His children in error.” I see that as the reality on the ground that we must deal with.
    As I look at these comments, I see a lot of heartbreak; that schoolteacher Mike A, mentioned sounds like a lost soul trying to dig her way out of error.
    It does begin with pastors. If they are teaching sound doctrine in their churches, the unsound will hear and repent, or leave. If they are teaching unsound doctrine, the sound believers change the pastor or leave.

  18. Mike A says:

    Ok Chrystal – here is your question: “Someone who once contended for the faith has been swept up by the very apostasy they once spoke against. What does that say about a person who would do this?”

    Here is my answer 1 John 2:19 “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. ”

    We can argue all day, but this verse implies (in a very forward, clear, direct way) that someone who speaks out against heresy and then leaves the faith to follow a false path never was a part of the body of Christ.

    I agree with that on 2 accounts : 1. It is written very plainly in God’s Word. 2. I see it in action.

    @beyondgrace – thanks for the link. I cannot remeber the exact method or book she used, but I belive it was called “Cleansing Stream” or something similiar.

  19. shane says:

    I am still trying to figure out how a family member that believes in the security of the believer can go to a church that teaches the believer is not secure.

    To me, the security of the believer is a very important doctrine. It just blows my mind how that person can compromise.

  20. Steve says:

    Hello sorry I know this has nothing to do with the post but…
    Does anyone know some christians who really love God and follow the word of God (Bible) in the TRUTH in the seattle area? I just moved here and I am looking for true brothers and sisters in Christ… Thanks for the help and be blessed! :-)

  21. Mr. PSb says:

    Very insightful thread here. I believe that as with all things we need to be sober when examining the issue and see it for a perspective where we understand how this issue relates to other doctrines of Scripture:

    1. True Believers do not apostatize – this is an impossibility. Though there may be times when a believer may not be as fruitful as they ought – in time their true fruit will be manifest. Salvation was not earned and it cannot be lost. Let’s face it do we “lose” the Holy Spirit of whom we are sealed until the day of redemption?

    2. Apostates show that they were NEVER saved to begin with. Yes, it sounds harsh, but it is most certainly true. They were already condemned before hand, they were not ordained to eternal life. God did NOT make them more evil; however God hardens people in their sin by removing His restraining grace and allowing people to do as they please. The Parable of the Sower in Mark 4 sheds further light on this.

    3. The Holy Spirit is the seal of ALL TRUE believers. If any one doesn’t have the Holy Spirit they have NO part with Christ – the world CANNOT received the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit’s work is to ensure that we are conformed to the image of Christ as He works in us to bear Godly fruit. Furthermore, The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth and He points us to Christ and leads believers into all truth – HE DOES NOT LEAD US INTO ERROR. If someone is in an apostate church or movement, if they really have the Holy Spirit at some point they will renounce the teaching and leave the movement.

    4. Jesus said HE KNOWS HIS SHEEP AND THEY HEAR HIS VOICE AND THE VOICE OF STRANGERS THEY DO NOT FOLLOW. The Bible makes it clear that whoever doesn’t hear God’s words is NOT from God. The Lord knows them that are His and everyone that names the name of Christ MUST depart from iniquity.

    5. Though apostasy is impossible for the elect, the warning is still valid. We are to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith. This does not mean that there is we have NO eternal security, but rather the Scripture is warning against a reckless and callous attitude towards our faith. Sin has a price and salvation is free but it certainly isn’t cheap by any means – an ETERNAL sacrifice was made. The unregenerate show little to no concern for apostasy, the word of God is not precious in their eyes.

    6. The command to apostates is to REPENT and BELIEVE the Gospel – the finished work of Christ, peradventure God may grant them repentance or harden them though their persistent rebellion.

    7. Regardless of how things appear on a superficial level, God knows the hearts. We are not to judge before the appointed time – that being, we can’t judge what we don’t know. However, if we can know something, we had better judge or risk being as guilty as the offenders (Keep burnin’ da flame Chrystal ).

    8. Salvation is WHOLLY a work of God. Though there are the human elements to such as the work of the Pastors/Teaches and the means of grace though the sacraments. God is ultimately at work in the lives of the elect. No one can tell God that “a Pastor made me go to hell”. Each believer need to be responsible and discerning for their spiritual lives and Church leaders must understand the grave responsibility they have; for they stand as Christ’s ministers either leading people towards Him of away from Him.

    9. Denominations are not a bad thing, because they help us draw lines in the sand. Furthermore, as Christians we have the freedom to disagree on certain issues once it doesn’t cross the lines of Biblical Orthodoxy. There are many denominations that have certain denominational distinctives and are in full agreement on the tenets of Christianity and issues in regard to salvation and the authority of the Bible among other essentials expressed in the Creeds, Confessions and Catechisms of the Church throughout the centuries.

    10. As we see apostasy all around us, let us search our hearts, examine ourselves to see if we be in the faith and draw nigh to Christ as our light in the midst of the surrounding darkness. Soli Deo Gloria.

    That’s all I’ll say for now.

  22. Mickey Merrie says:

    Memo to Denise…
    I put my email at the bottom of my post so that you could go off subject there.
    Silly me. I didn’t realize that non-denominationalism was a denomination!!!
    Actually dear, I did not say I was non-denominational. If anything I am pre-denominational. Look up the word denomination…it means division…just what you practice. Is Jesus divided? Your denomination teaches that the Roman Catholic Church is the great whore. I agree, but then who are her daughters? Think long and hard about that one. So you are happy with your Baptist roots! Good for you…then why do you use an Anglican bible? Also, why do you now hold to a secret pre-trib rapture, a 180 year old doctrine, counter to your Baptist roots?….Has your “church” finished their 40 days of purpose yet, lead by Rick Warren, probably the most famous Baptist preacher of all time? Have you also done Henry Blackabee’s Experiencing God program?
    Dear sister, wake up. The denominations back in Christ’s time were Saducee, Pharisee, etc….and it was precisely those folks traditions that prevented the Jew’s from recognizing their Messiah then. Today these same traditions taught to you by men, cause you to mark certain other denominations as undesirable for your church search,…yet lead you into the heresies mentioned above rampant in the Baptist churches! Ever visit this site http://stopbaptistpredators.org/index.htm
    Looks like your denominational discernment tool could lead you down a rough road.
    I see you like to quote dead men more then living Word.
    Well here is a good Spurgeon quote for you: As early as 1858 Spurgeon preached a broad way (i.e. ecumenism, Matthew 7:13-14).

    “Our Father.” That then, includes those of God’s children who differ from us in their doctrine. Ah! There are some that differ from us as wide as the poles; but yet they are God’s children. Come, Mr. Bigot, do not kneel down, and say, “My Father,” but “Our Father.” “If you please, I cannot put in Mr. So-and-So, for I think he is a heretic.” Put him in, sir; God has put him in, and you must put him in too, and say, “Our Father.” Is it not remarkable how very much alike all God’s people are upon their knees? Some time ago at a prayer-meeting I called upon two brothers in Christ to pray one after another, the one a Wesleyan and the other a strong Calvinist, and the Wesleyan prayed the most Calvinistic prayer of the two, I do believe – at least, I could not tell which was which. I listened to see if I could not discern some peculiarity even in their phraseology; but there was none. “Saints in prayer appear as one.” (The New Park Street Pulpit, Vol. IV, p. 390, Sept. 12, 1858, bold added)
    In the above quote, speaking of a difference in doctrine, Spurgeon says, “There are some that differ from us as wide as the poles; but yet they are God’s children.” This is the exact opposite of the words of 1 John 4:6 and 1 Timothy 6:3-5
    By the way. I like to read Spurgeon too, but he was a man…Let God’s Word be true, and every man a liar.
    Have you seen the second most famous Baptist minister Billy Graham speak of the same broad road including Muslims, in his interview with Larry King? You can find that one on you-tube, along with his uncertainty of his eternal security there as well.
    The Lord is my Pastor, i shall not want HE makes me to lay down in green pastures…
    I follow no man…only Jesus through His Word in context as revealed by the Holy Spirit. I don’t do “church” for I am (a part of) His church. No division here. I envite everyone to walk with Jesus as He leads His sheep where He wants us to go.

  23. C. L. Gregory says:

    Mr Psb,
    Well, thanks for promoting the false doctrine of eternal security, otherwise known as “once saved, always saved.” The fact is, ANY christian CAN lose their salvation when they take their eyes off the cross. Stop being foolish. If that was not the case, Paul would not have wrote in Timothy that there would be MANY who would FALL away from the truth, giving in to doctrines of devils. These people, although they might have at one time been believers, lost their salvation by following another Christ. There is no such thing as eternal security, Judas was chosen by Christ, he was a follower a believer, yet satan entered into him and he lost his salvation. Demas was a CHRISTIAN whom Paul first acknowledged as a believer, but later in his writings, Paul told Timothy that even DEMAS had left the faith for he desired the things of the world. You sir preach heresy if you promote this nonsense drival such as Christians cannot be turned over to apostasy.

    C. L. Gregory

  24. IWTT says:

    @beyondgrace – thanks for the link. I cannot remeber the exact method or book she used, but I belive it was called “Cleansing Stream” or something similiar.

    What do you want to know about this, I was a part of the ministry team on a national level for 7 years before I got out. And there is a book by Pastor Chris Hayward (from Church on the Way) regarding this “program”…. called “Cleansing Stream”.

    You can ask me at “group” site if you want

  25. Mickey Merrie says:

    Since most folks believe denominations are a good thing, and one is looking for a good church in Seattle, perhaps you might like to look here to find which one is right. 38,000 options for you.
    http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/a106.htm

    …just remember that the folks leaving the traditional service can’t even get along with the folks coming to the contemporary service as they fight each other in the parking lot.

    Memo to Denise…Spurgeon left the Baptist Denomination he was a part of…why?

    Till Jesus is Head the body is DEAD!!!…doesn’t matter the nationality.

  26. Denise says:

    Yes Doug, I too see the heartbreak. Its a burden to my heart.

    The question I think is more fundamental—are these people saved? How do you know? Based on what? What ultimately are they relying on for salvation? What gospel did they hear? A man-centered one? (MacArthur deals with this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nI9EzMWZoag ) The Christ-centered one? American Evangelicalism’s gospel isn’t the gospel. Do they think they have to maintain their salvation by certain works or by not doing certain works?

    If after hearing the Truth, and they refuse to leave a false church, something is desperately wrong & they should examine themselves to see if they are in the faith. Those who stay in an unbiblical church that teaches horrible doctrine do so in rebellion against Scripture. Its not like they don’t have Scripture, but its that they aren’t testing all things nor submitting to the Word. Or worse, they aren’t saved at all. Its to their shame they stay.

    I would have to question the biblical knowledge of someone who thinks a false teacher is “right on”; it actually reveals that they aren’t right on at all. In fact, they weren’t biblically knowledgeable if they were part of a Pentecostal church anyway. In other words they were already in bad doctrine, and the fact they approve of a false teacher(s) reveals it goes deeper than perhaps others had suspected. I often tell people who are looking for a new church (and this goes for any ministry too), to read their Resources and Links page–that will tell you what they really think is good for their congregation or readers. Statements of faith are copied a lot and are standard fare for the most part (except the anti-Trinitarian ones), so you have to go to what they recommend as spiritual food and see if that lines up with Scripture.

    Regarding your friend Bill, Doug, visiting is one thing, but as long as they aren’t trying to share their unbiblical views with others at your church is another, if you see what I mean. It is very rare to find Pentecostals/Charismatics that keep their views to themselves. So, I guess as long as they are quietly listening and studying Scripture, it could be a good thing. But I would be very careful with them and their potential influence with the members of your church (even questions/comments in a Bible study can reveal an agenda). And I think there’s a point when they need to make a decision on where they will stay. Each church should have committed members; visitors for a time is good, but not for too long, because as visitors, they cannot be disciplined if needed and they are not in submission to the leadership.

    Btw, I agree with you on the pastor’s burden to bear on this issue. It goes back to what is and is not being preached from the pulpit.

    I’ll try to remember to pray for Bill and Mike’s wife’s friend too.

    Here are a couple more challenging videos I’ve posted at my blog: http://surphside.blogspot.com/2009/06/for-christians.html

  27. Denise says:

    Here’s a passage that might be applicable….

    2Pe 2:15 Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray. They have followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved gain from wrongdoing,

    2Pe 2:19 They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved.

    2Pe 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.

    2Pe 2:21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.

    2Pe 2:22 What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”

  28. Mr. PSb says:

    @Chrystal: I agree. That verse says a lot and tells it all in a nutshell.
    @ Mike A: Good designations, nice simple exegesis.

  29. Denise says:

    Steve, it sounds like you are looking for a local church? Here’s a couple I found you might want to check out:

    Emmanuel Reformed Baptist Church
    3752 S 182nd St
    SeaTac, WA 98188
    206-244-4054
    http://emmanuelreformedbaptist.org/?page_id=13

    Trinity Reformed Baptist Church of Kirkland, WA
    Our Meeting Place:
    Northlake Chapel
    315 3rd Ave S
    Kirkland, WA
    Phone: (206) 236-1818
    http://www.trinityreformedbaptist.com/

  30. Mr. PSb says:

    @ C. L. Gregory:

    The issue raised in this thread is directly linked to the issue of Eternal Security. Though you and many others may not believe it, the Scripture is very clear about matters of salvation and I’ll attempt to clarify my position by quoting from your objections:

    1. “The fact is, ANY christian CAN lose their salvation when they take their eyes off the cross. Stop being foolish. If that was not the case, Paul would not have wrote in Timothy that there would be MANY who would FALL away from the truth, giving in to doctrines of devils”.

    One, if we can lose our salvation it means it is maintained by our works. Therefore, salvation is not by the grace of God through faith in Christ ALONE. It would mean that we somehow need to add our efforts to Jesus’. Paul wrote in 1 Tim 4:1-2 about the end-time apostasy that would occur, which resounded Jesus’ words concerning the wideness of the broad road of destruction. Jesus also said many will say “Lord Lord” to Him and yet he said that He will say He NEVER knew them – not, “well I knew you for a time but you fell away”. Apart from this Jess said that with the deception going on in the last days IF it were possible, the ELECT may be deceived – this means that the elect do not say in error, though they may be blinded by ignorance for a time.

    Now, the issue people have with “once saved, always saved” is that they misunderstanding it. Now a saved person is born again, does a true believer become unregenerate and un-born again, only to repent and repeat the process? No. The thing is the Bible is clear that if one is TRULY saved their will be evidence to back that up. The Bible makes it clear that whoever practices sin and lawlessness is NOT from God – this included promoting false doctrine. When someone claims to be a Christian and yet does not abide by the standards that God has set that means the person is practicing ANTINOMIANISM – meaning that they are downplaying or disregarding God’s law. God’s law is a good thing once it is used rightfully. Grace is no license to sin.

    If you always have to worry about your salvation you are no different to the Jehovah’s Witnesses. I’d also like you to consider how “losing” your salvation impacts the doctrine of Predestination – it would make God seem schizophrenic. Apart from that it also comes across as a variant of Open Theism. Please observe the following passages of Scripture:

    “And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” – John 6:39-40

    So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” – John 8:31-32

    The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.”” I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep”. (not the wolves or goats) – John 10:3-5, 14, 15

    “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, [1] is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” – John 10:27-30

    “Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?” – John 11:25-27

    “I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled”. – John 17:9-12 (Judas was NEVER saved to begin with; Psalms 41:9, John 13:18)

    “For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified”.- Romans 8:29-30 (Does God change His mind?)

    “Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? As it is written, For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered. No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord”. – Romans 8:33-39

    “even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us [2] for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved”. – Ephesians 1:4-6

    “In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory”. – Ephesians 1:11-14

    “But God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.” – 2 Timothy 2:19

    “For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned”. – Hebrews 6:4-8 (Bad fruit only comes from bad trees.)

    “Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us” – 1 John 2:18-19 (This includes Demas who apostasized, he shows that he was never a Christian.)

    “Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, 25 to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen”. – Jude 1:24-25
    (God’s grace is sufficient to keep)

    So I believe that if we struggle with Eternal Security, we need to re-examine our views concerning the nature and work of salvation and the Atonement and also the issue of predestination.

    In summary: Apostates show they were NEVER saved in the first place, though they gave the appearance of being so.

  31. Doug says:

    Denise, thank you for your insights. I just checked your blog-very nice! May God continue to Bless you.

  32. shane says:

    @mr. psb

    “So I believe that if we struggle with Eternal Security, we need to re-examine our views concerning the nature and work of salvation and the Atonement and also the issue of predestination.”

    I used to be believe that a believer could lose their salvation. I praise God for showing me otherwise. Unfortunately though, people that don’t want to believe it, will not be convinced. It bothers me when I try to explain the security of the beleiver to someone and they don’t want to listen. It does show a lack of understanding in the atonement and perhaps a persons lost condition when they are so hardhearted against the fact of Scripture that the believer is eternally saved.

    Romans 8:29,30. Sums it up excellently.

    Our faith to believe is a gift from God (Ephesians 2:8) for without Him it would be impossible for us. Salvatio is of the Lord and Him alone.

    1Pet1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
    1Pet1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
    1Pet1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

    In these verses Peter says that the believer is kept by God and that our inheritance is waiting on us in Heaven. He doesn’t sat that we may not be kept by God or that we may not have an inheritance.

    There are so many Scriptures that show the security of the believer.

    “You sir preach heresy if you promote this nonsense drival such as Christians cannot be turned over to apostasy.”

    I would consider the belief that a true believer can lose their salvation is the heretical view.

  33. Mr. PSb says:

    @ Shane:

    Its good to know that you understand and believe the doctrine of Eternal Security. There is no way we can study the issue of apostasy and overlook Eternal Security. It is so comforting to know we have a Good Shepherd that will most certainly care for His sheep.

  34. Denise says:

    Do not call me “dear”, Mickey since you use it in a condenscending way, you don’t know me from Adam, and I am not your dear. I belong to my husband.

    One quote from Spurgeon and you falsely accuse me of liking to quote dead men more than the living Word? Boy you are WAY off there Mickey.

    Interestingly Mickey in your diatribe, you infer Spurgeon taught universalism (nice try…what anti-Baptist website did you get that from?) like Billy Graham (he’s no baptist nor Evangelical Christian), yet you go on to not only quote Spurgeon (there you go quoting a dead man and then twisting his views to suit your anti-Baptist agenda), but you then say, “I like to read Spurgeon too”. So you like to read a dead Baptist preacher who taught universalism? LOLOL. Please. Your hypocrisy is glaring. Spurgeon left the Baptist Union, he didn’t leave his baptist distinctives. Had you known the history of Spurgeon and the church that still exists there, you’d have known that. You put all Baptists into one catagory to your shame and willing ignorance.

    Mickey, I would suggest instead of going ape against Baptists, you read the real history of Baptists. I’ve already provided one link. “The Concise History of Baptists” by Orchard is another excllent book to find out the history of biblical Baptists (although under different names down through the centuries).

    Your view of Scripture and Baptist History is seriously, seriously flawed. In fact your ignorance is embarrassing to watch.

    It appears Mickey, by your last statement, “I don’t do “church” for I am (a part of) His church.” and the claim of “38,000 options” you so mockingly offer to Steve who is trying to obey the Lord in finding a local church as HE commanded, that you are churchless (your numbers claim is the one that Rome uses LOL and is actually not even accurate). If this is true, then you are in violation of Scripture that commands us to be in a local church under the leadership of pastors and elders, where there are appointed qualified deacons, the preaching of the Word, ministry of spiritual gifts, baptisms, the Lord’s Table, singing of songs to the Lord, etc.

    I find your diatribe here to be very divisive and arrogant Mickey. Your slander of me, Spurgeon, & Baptists is also sinful.

  35. Denise says:

    Mickey,

    Do not address me anymore as you are clearly an impediment to the Truth and twist numerous things. You are unteachable and arrogant and want to call everyone out of their churches.

    Pro 18:1 Whoever isolates himself seeks his own desire; he breaks out against all sound judgment.

  36. Mr. PSb says:

    @ Mickey Merrie:

    1. Firstly you’re going way off the topic.

    2. Your aren’t showing that you have much knowledge of Baptist History or Baptist subdivisions. I attend a Reformed Baptist church that doesn’t believe the things you accused (all) Baptists of believing.

    3. It also doesn’t seem that you know very much about denominations. There are many denominations among Christendom that are not at odds with each other, even though there are points where they differ. The main thing is that the essentials are intact.

    4. Regardless if one is inspired or affirms the views proposed by someone like Spurgeon or Calvin, it is important that these views be weighed against Scripture. If they their views are in line with Scripture it doesn’t make it a sin to read or quote from these men and be edified from their teachings. People often forget that Christianity has centuries of history and looking to the past can help us avoid mistakes we can make in the present and future. The sin is following people if they teach CONTRARY to the Bible.

    Now, back to the topic at hand: 1 John 2:18-19 makes it all clear.

  37. Denise says:

    Eternal security is totally biblical, because it rests on the faithfulness and truthfulness of God.

    Besides what Mrs. Psb has rightly said, I’ll add some verses too. Eternal life is ETERNAL (btw, I use caps for emphasis only–I’m not yelling). =)

    Faith is a gift of God, not of ourselves: Eph. 2:8, Rom. 12:3,6; 1Cor.12:9; Heb. 12:2;Phil. 1:6;Acts 16:14;Ezek.36:26-27;Eph. 6:23

    Repentance is a gift of God: 2Tim. 2:25-26; Acts 11:18; John 14:17

    Ecc 3:14 I perceived that WHATEVER GOD DOES ENDURES FOREVER; nothing can be added to it, NOR ANYTHING TAKEN FROM IT. GOD HAS DONE IT, SO THAT people fear before Him.

    Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should NOT PERISH BUT HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.

    Col 1:13 HE HAS DELIVERED US from the domain of darkness and TRANSFERRED US to the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins…17 And He is before all things, and IN HIM ALL THINGS HOLD TOGETHER… 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by THE BLOOD OF HIS CROSS.

    1Cor. 1: 8 HE WILL KEEP YOU STRONG TO THE END, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ OUR LORD, IS FAITHFUL.

    1Th 5:23 Now may the GOD OF PEACE HIMSELF SANCTIFY YOU COMPLETELY, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 HE who calls you is FAITHFUL; HE WILL SURELY DO IT.

    Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is NOT OF YOUR OWN DOING; it is the gift of God, 9 NOT A RESULT OF WORKS, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are HIS WORKMANSHIP, CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

    God will not lose one person Jesus Christ died for (aka redeemed, buy back, purchased) because:

    Jesus is interceding on our behalf: Heb. 2:17-18; 1John 2:1; Romans 8:34

    Jesus keeps us in His hand: John 10:28

    He will not loose His own: John 6:39;40

    The Holy Spirit intercedes on our behalf: Rom. 8:26

    The Holy Spirit seals us: Eph. 1:13-14; 2Cor. 1:21-22

    We are kept in the Father’s hand: John 10:29

    Kept by the power of God: 1Peter 1:4-5;Jude 1

    This is why we are kept to the end, because the Trinity saves us and keeps us (see 1Peter 1:2), unless you want to call God a failure…..which would be blasphemy.

    To deny Eternal Security is to deny the doctrine of Justification, too. Justification necessitates eternal security because Justification is pronounced while we’re God’s enemies.(Romans 4 and Romans 8).

    I think too, CL you don’t understand what Salvation is FOR. Its not for us primarily. Salvation is God displaying HIS workmanship, so that we are to HIS praise and glory for ever and ever and ever:

    Eph 1:4 even as HE CHOSE US in him before the foundation of the world, THAT WE SHOULD BE holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to THE PURPOSE OF HIS WILL, 6 TO THE PRAISE OF HIS GLORIOUS GRACE, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

    Eph 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to THE PURPOSE OF HIM who WORKS ALL THINGS ACCORDING TO the counsel of HIS WILL, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be TO THE PRAISE OF HIS GLORY.

    Eph 2:7 SO THAT in the coming ages HE MIGHT SHOW the IMMEASURABLE RICHES OF HIS GRACE IN KINDNESS toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

    Salvation is for the sole glory of God, never man. It is too high of a thing for mere men to try to earn or maintain; to do so is to reject Grace and elevate man to a level Scripture says is impossible for him to be at. Its actually prideful to reject the sufficiencey of the blood of Christ (see Heb.10:29 and Gal.3) .

    Gal 3:2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

    Mrs. PSb, you are right on missy! And so are you Shane. =)

  38. C. L. Gregory says:

    I’m not a baptist I’m a pentecostal believer. I won’t take the time to go through each and every foolish post that continues to promote the false and unBiblical doctrine of eternal security, but to say this, we are bought with a price, but God does not hold us as slaves neither. We have a free will and it is because of that freewill that we have an option to deny the Lord as Peter, and walk away. Demas was a believer, but Paul reminds Timothy that Demas LEFT the faith, having loved this present world. Demas, a former believer most likely died lost unless he repented. Eternal security presents a terrible notion that we can live any way we want, it preaches a sinless perfection in whereas one does not need to repent for sins, nor does it require obedience to the word regarding sin. Baptists, although sincere, are sincerely wrong.

    c. l. gregory

  39. shane says:

    @c.l. gregory

    you are the type of person that concerns me. you have the Scriptures and truth shown to you yet you still don’t see it.

    “Eternal security presents a terrible notion that we can live any way we want”

    Believing you can lose your salvation does as well. All a person has to do is repent and “get saved” all over again. Those are the same people that come to the altar week in and week out getting saved all over again. I was once one of those people.

    “I won’t take the time to go through each and every foolish post that continues to promote the false and unBiblical doctrine of eternal security”

    All in all you can’t back up that view Scripturally. There are some texts that seem to show that a believer can lose their salvation. Look up the definition of “propitiation”. Maybe it will shed some light on the “eternal security” issue.

  40. Mr. PSb says:

    @ C. L. Gregory:

    I grew up as a Pentecostal/Charismatic for almost 1/3 of my life, it is the same with MANY of the people who frequent this site. However I left because Pentecostalism/Charismatism is not rooted in sound doctrine. I encourage you to study the history of this movement and pay attention to persons such as Charles Finney, John G. Lake, Alexander Dowie, Charles Fox Parham and John Wesley who heavily influenced the theology of this movement. What you are asserting with your comments is a variant of the 5th century heresy of Pelagianism and the 16 century free-will heresy Arminianism in saying:

    “We have a free will and it is because of that freewill that we have an option to deny the Lord as Peter, and walk away”.

    God’s sovereignty runs parallel to man’s free will; However salvation is ALWAYS a word of God in ALL aspects. We are not speaking of Determinism either. Concerning the issue with Peter, he was not even regenerated as yet – that occurred at Pentecost. Peter was in the flesh when he denied Christ. Jesus knew beforehand that Peter would deny Him, yet he prayed for Peter and He was numbered among the chosen in John 17 and it had nothing to do with Peter’s works. No Bible scholar will tell you Peter was an apostate or that he lost his salvation. This is a most certainly heretical assertion. Observe the following as well:

    “Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.” – Luke 22:31-32

    However you do not realize that we’re not as free as we think. One cannot become a Christian simply by the act of the will. A sinner dead in their sin and trespasses is unable to come to God on His own – hence the need to be born again. Man is in bondage to sin and helpless to save Himself. Man does not have the will power to come to God on his own apart from God extending grace (Romans 3:10-12). Observe the following:

    But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. – John 1:12-13

    Concerning the issue with Peter, we should not isolate Scriptures by themselves by treat Scripture as a whole; comparing Scripture with Scripture and reading it in its proper context. Additionally as I always say, Christianity has a History and if we need to see if a particular doctrine is orthodox we need to trace it through the centuries. Most assuredly I can tell you that it the the early church taught and believed Eternal Security. Even the Apostle John wrote:

    “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life….We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him”. – 1 John 5:13, 18

    Eternal Security is not a license for sin. If any one uses the doctrine of Eternal Security to do as they wish they do not have Eternal Security and are abiding under God’s wrath. You call these people Antinomians. Please, there is a difference.

    Now, if Eternal Security is such a false doctrine and it is so perilous to our spiritual well being, I think it would be nice if you could share with us on this thread how we can lose our salvation and how we can get it back if we lose it. Also I would like you to trace the historicity of this doctrine of losing our salvation as well, so we can know that God left salvation in our hands.

  41. Mickey Merrie says:

    Memo to Baptists, I am not against you at all. Some of my closest friends are Baptists… reformed, and fundamental too!.I have a couple of baptist pastors as clients! You however said NOTHING about the Baptist predator site…hmmm. I enjoy Paul Washer as much as anyone. You are the ones who quote Spurgeon when you say that you can trace your lineage back to the Apostles themselves. Yet you are as divided as any other denomination. Wake up! You sound like Catholics for crying out loud! Look at your arguments!…and talk about diatribes!!! Hey I checked my Anglican King James and even checked the Geneva bible, and none of the seven churches mentioned in Revelation were BAPTIST!!!! They WERE however Jesus’ churches, and were warned against their sins, and are any of them there today?
    Google the First Baptist Church of Laodicea, or Ephasis. Not there! My wife attended Liberty University, and even traveled and sang in their music ministry.
    You are depending on you Baptist traditions to “save you” again I say you sound like Catholics!! You also failed to say anything about your tradition of a pre-trib rapture, which came to this land through the Plymouth Brethern, thanks to a man named Scofield…ever hear of him? Go look at his track record….dumped his wife and kids, arrested for embezzeling from his own family.tsk tsk…..
    I have been in many Baptist churches over the years….no life, all legalism, cold, dry… and a continuous diet of how right we are and everyone else is wrong, our doctrine…no Jesus. Examine yourselves and see that you are in the faith.
    Everything becomes a doctrinal war with you, yet you would throw Paul Washer out when he tells the truth in his shocking youth message. Every Sunday you preach the Tithe and yet there is no storehouse in your churches….WAKE UP!!!
    You claim to know WHAT you believe, and even WHY you believe (man teaching man echo upon echo) I simply know and walk with ON WHOM I BELIEVE. Realize that your traditions and history mean NOTHING!!!!
    I’ll not bother you with any more light on this matter. Mr. PB and J I did give my email address so that we could take this off line for you…but it does show this… you can see the error in other’s but not in your doctrine…Looks a lot like the Pharasees/Saducees blindness to me.
    Finally Baptists, when will you no longer be Baptists? or will there be a Baptist section immediately to the right of Jesus, or will just Baptists get in?

  42. shane says:

    @Mickey Merrie
    “Finally Baptists, when will you no longer be Baptists? or will there be a Baptist section immediately to the right of Jesus, or will just Baptists get in?”

    ah come on now. everybody knows that the Church of Christ folks are the only ones that will get into heaven.

  43. Chrystal says:

    Okay, gang… I understand that during a debate tempers can flare and we become passionate. I think we need to step back, take a deep breath, and temper our words before we post.

    We’ve gotten way off topic in this thread. I would like to get back on topic because I see this as a vastly important issue in the church now. Some are being swept away by the false doctrine they once used to expose. This is why it’s important to walk in truth… there are wolves among us, and we need to be wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

  44. shane says:

    Sorry about getting off topic.

    If someone does turn away from sound doctrine to foolishness then I would hope they would return to sound doctrine. If they did come back to sound doctrine then I would just say that they were deceived for a time. Or they could have been lost all along and then were saved and came to sound doctrine.
    If a person leaves sound doctrine and never comes back, I would say they were never saved in the first place.
    I don’t see how someone stay in a movement that is full of the spirit of error.

  45. Mickey Merrie says:

    I am not the least bit angry, and actually, much of it is amusing, thanks Shane! Actually it would be even more amusing if it weren’t so sad that folks defend their denomination here more then they do their Savior in there day to day walk!
    Anyone care to debate THAT ONE!
    Even this thread, got turned around inta a denominational rant…truth is the vast majority of folks follow Jesus because of what He can do for them rather then Who He IS. That is my point, and it was repeatedly proven by WHY folks attend where they attend…
    Still, all in all I appreciate you Crystal, and this blog, that includes all my dear brothers and sisters.

    Amreika burns and yet the majority of “church goers” are blind to the judgement we are ALREADY under.

  46. Mickey Merrie says:

    Crystal, back on subject, o.k. so why would they at one time expose error, then later go into error?
    How about because they do what they do to be seen and accepted by men they value. I think that it is a mistake to think that they they knew and understood what they spoke against, rather they are like most folks in the system who are not voices at all but echos of those they esteem.
    Please refer to the email I sent you regarding “church” themes. The words from the “cheers theme song match EXACTLY to what and why most occupy pews today, and the majority of Pesters cater to.

    “Making your way in the world today takes everything you got. Taking a break from all your worries sure would help alot. Wouldn’t you like to get away. Sometimes you want to go where everybody knows your name. And they’re always glad you came. You want to be where you can see the troubles are all the same you want to be where everybody knows your name. You want to go where people know people are all the same. You want to go where everybody knows your name…
    http://beemp3.com/download.php?file=4203031&song=

    They move on from one place to the next chasing every wind of doctrine, looking for their next blessing, and ever learning but never able to come to the knowlege of the Truth.

    Mickey

  47. Denise says:

    Well, I guess I’m the only one that saw my error. However I will still apologize to Mr. P because I thought he was a she. So I retract my “missy” comment and replace it with a “mister!”. =)

    If we can loose salvation, then that automatically rejects the doctrine of Justification. It also calls God a liar.

    Eternal life IS eternal, and between Mr. P, me and Shane, we provided a plethora of passages about eternal security. CL, you have yet to give any substantial passages that say what you believe.

    This actually goes back to the issue I mentioned in response to Doug earlier: what gospel does someone hear and believe? If it is man-centered, as CL’s is, then they will easily walk away because their salvation was all about themselves; they are masters of their eternal fate & its up to them to keep it or loose it.

    If however, the Christ-centered Gospel was proclaimed and believed, then they will never walk away, but rather grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ because they have the Spirit of Truth Who has sealed them for forever. That’s the beauty of John 3:16, for instance, as well as John 6.

    Joh 10:2 But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
    Joh 10:3 To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
    Joh 10:4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they KNOW his voice.
    Joh 10:5 A STRANGER THEY WILL NOT FOLLOW, but they WILL FLEE FROM HIM, for they do not know the voice of strangers.”

    Jesus is interceding on our behalf: Heb. 2:17-18; 1John 2:1; Romans 8:34

    Jesus keeps us in His hand: John 10:28

    He will not loose His own: John 6:39;40

    The Holy Spirit intercedes on our behalf: Rom. 8:26

    The Holy Spirit seals us: Eph. 1:13-14; 2Cor. 1:21-22

    We are kept in the Father’s hand: John 10:29

    Kept by the power of God: 1Peter 1:4-5;Jude 1

    This is why we are kept to the end, because the Trinity saves us and keeps us (see 1Peter 1:2), unless you want to call God a failure…..which would be blasphemy

    If all of salvation is initiated, given, sealed, kept, and empowerd by God, and it is, then there is no danger of any believer having Temporary Eternal life. Such a thing doesn’t exist, because God keeps our salvation sealed. He saves us to the end of our salvation which is glorification in Heaven, to HIS glory, which is WHAT SALVATION IS ALL ABOUT:

    GOD’S GLORY, NOT YOUR’S.

    You ain’t smart enough nor spiritual to keep that which you didn’t earn; to maintain by the flesh what is of the Spirit. Your grubby little hands aren’t big enough to open the hands of the Father and Son. Time to submit happily to that sovereign fact! It glorifies God completely!

  48. Chrystal says:

    Mickey,

    Taking one last jab at people and then jumping back to the topic isn’t what I meant when I made my comment above. I won’t approve your comments if you continue doing that.

    I like healthy debate, but wanted to keep this thread on topic because it’s a topic that is important. If you guys would like to discuss the topic of denominations, I can start a thread specifically for that. I just don’t want it in this thread.

    Let me know.

  49. shane says:

    John Macarthur talks about people that leave the truth in this message. He talks about some men that appeared to be great expositors of the Bible and true men of God(he names some names):

    http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons/GTY119_When-Believers-Stop-Believing-Portrait-of-an-Apostate?q=portrait+apostate

    I just can’t imagine someone that is truly saved going into some type of heretical error whatever it may be or leaving the faith all together.

  50. Doug says:

    Thank you, Shane-I just finished reading the MacArthur interview, and I posted the link on my site. Very informative.

  51. David says:

    There are those that remain in the light and teach against those principles/darkness that “pull the wool” over the eyes of God’s sheep & lead them into darkness.
    There are those that teach about the light of the gospel and that point to the eye-opening power of Jesus to bring those blind from birth (all Mankind) out of the common human existence that causes men to stub their toes and pick up dangerous coals of sin, stumble into ditches and walk off the eternal precipice of time into the outer darkness.
    If those that have had their eyes opened and have beheld the Light of Christ choose to turn away from the light and live in the darkness of the varied wolf skin blindfolds that warm the nose and tickle the ears and give fuzzy sensations .. then what can be said if they stumble off of the narrow path and onto the six-laned highway of demonic oppression or over the cliff of life/death?
    Blind men don’t stub their toes on purpose, but it happens because they love the sensations of dancing to the pied piper even amongst the stones of the law and of their own consciences. It harms them , but they can’t help themselves because they don’t have the ability. (Born in sin, trying to fulfill the Law but constantly failing). One could stop all activity and avoid physical harm on the rocks of life, but they still have not cured the original problem of blindness and the resulting problems thereof!
    Those that can see and know the Light and yet turn back to the sensations of darkness of the light of strange fire in the deep mystic caves of deception (wolf dens) – when the day of shaking comes and the mountains crumble and they are trapped in the dens of iniquity – who can escape death among them?
    COME OUT OF THE DARKNESS AND INTO THE LIGHT! We must continue to cry out at the mouth of these caves of new age iniquity, but we must be careful lest the sounds and flickering of light deep in the earth lull us into venturing forth to try out these man made strange fire experiences. He who turns from sin at the last hour and runs out into the light of day will be as safe as the thief on the cross who called upon Jesus at his last hour. He who repents and returns and works but for the last hour of day will receive the same pay as he who worked all day in the Master’s Vineyard, such is Grace. But he who turns from the vineyard and leaves and never returns, he will in no way receive pay but will be cast out. There is time while it is yet day.

  52. Barry says:

    Hello,I only have one thing 2 say,JESUS help us all!

  53. nickleback says:

    jeepers, I’d hate to think what would happen if Rob Bell got on here, he’d nail all ya’ll.

  54. Mickey Merrie says:

    Crystal, I bit my tongue…..now it’s bleeding. :(

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