God-ka and the Yum Rum of Heaven

I found this at A Little Leaven

Mystic John Crowder and his sidekick, Benjamin Dunn, visited South Wales in January and made a bit of a splash.  A reporter from The Sun in the U.K. (google it if you’re interested) covered Sloshfest, a mystical ecstatic event organized by a fella named David Vaughn, that reinforces the false doctrine and demonic manifestations you see from such people as Brandon Barthrop and Patricia King.  The event is now in its fourth year, and as you can tell from the article, the reporter seems intrigued with the fact that these people are behaving in a drunken manner even though they have ingested no drugs or alcohol, and even refers to the atmosphere as being “debauched.” 

It is always interesting to hear how things like this appear to the secular world.  Here are some quotes from his article.  Please follow the link to read it for yourself. 

The 38-year-old (David Vaughan, organizer of Sloshfest) from nearby Pontypool is a former drug-user who makes no apologies for painting God as a party animal who wants to win over youngsters with supernatural highs. 

So, God’s a party animal, is He?  The Bible paints a completely different picture: 

Psa 145:17  The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.

Ps 50:6  And the heavens shall declare his righteousness: for God is judge himself. Selah.

Ps 89:14  Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.

Ps 97:2  Clouds and darkness are round about him: righteousness and judgment are the habitation of his throne.

Ps 99:3  Let them praise thy great and terrible name; for it is holy.

De 32:4  He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

1Sa 2:2  There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.

Back to the article:

After leading me to a quiet room away from the madness, David says: “This behaviour and message is bringing liberation to a world that doesn’t want Christianity as it has been.

“People are looking for something relevant to them. If you like to party, drink and take drugs, our advice is, ‘Don’t drink Vodka, drink God-ka’.

“It is filled with life and brings you to another level of joy unspeakable, liberating you from fears and inhibitions you find in the world. It is a blissful sense of liberty.

“This isn’t offensive to the Lord, but it is to the religious folk who attend a dead organisation.

“Heaven is going to be wild. God will show up and be the life of the party. We want to see fun coming back into the Church.”

They aren’t interested in Biblical truth, they’re interested in drunkenness, they want manifestations, mystical experiences, and tingles of the flesh that will ensure that they are never pleasing God and never able to in their present state. Under this deception, they will never grow spiritually.  They will forever remain fleshly and wanton, fulfilling the lusts of the flesh.  They will be incapable of pursuing or following the will of God. (1 Peter 4:2)

The young folks are revolting.  They don’t want the old way of doing things, they want something new, something relevant, something they can enjoy. This is what they want:

Back in the main room the party is pumping, with dry ice, airhorns and dazzling disco lights adding to the debauched atmosphere.

So much for seeking out God’s Word for the sanctifying power of truth, eh?

Read more by clicking this link.

To see David Vaughan and John Crowder, please watch the video below.

To learn more about John Crowder, please click here.  At that link you will find a review of John Crowder’s latest book by Jackie Alnor.

This entry was posted in Blasphemy, Deception, Demonic, ekkstasis, Hypercharismatics, Idolatry, Mysticism and tagged , , , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink.

121 Responses to God-ka and the Yum Rum of Heaven

  1. John Burton says:

    You know, it sure would be nice if you used the phrase “in my opinion” a little bit more.
    You so regularly make declarations about honestly debatable topics… and you seem to presume to be the one person who has the final word on the matter.

    Is it not possible that other lovers of Jesus simply have differing interpretations of certain scriptures than you do?

    For example, you said, “…that reinforces the false doctrine and demonic manifestations…”

    You do realize there are other Christians who don’t believe those to be false doctrines or demonic manifestations, right? Your humility isn’t showing.

    It would be much better if you admitted you are human and suceptable to being incorrect at times… and you said something like, “In my opinion these doctrines are false and are possible demonic manifestations.”

    That’s not being weak, it’s honoring others who are also biblical Christians who differ on some of the non-absolutes of scripture.

    • Chrystal says:

      The people who do these things are not Biblical Christians, and it doesn’t matter what my opinion is in the end…what matters is God’s Word.

    • truthinator says:

      Uh John,

      With respect, the stuff John Crowder does is not remotely Biblical under any slant of interpretation. When did Paul and Silas stop to “huff the ghost”. Appealing to the drug culture and giving heads a different way to practice escapism under the name of Jesus is not the same as true Christianity.

      Read the Word and compare what it says against the buffoon gibberish of Crowder and his ilk. There is a vast difference.

      Peace.

    • John Burton says:

      Do you feel that anything that’s ‘extra-biblical’ (the bible is silent on an issue) is demonic or heretical… unbiblical?

    • Chrystal says:

      Depends on what you’re talking about. Extra-biblical revelation? Yes.

    • Mr PSb says:

      “And if a really truthful man would not consciously resort to the use of ambiguous language, then certainly God, who is the absolute truth, cannot have given us a revelation that is calculated to mislead”. – (Principles of Biblical Interpretation, 1950, Louis Berkof, pgs. 57-58)

      John, what you are doing is committing intellectual suicide. You are not promoting unity in diversity but rather arbitrary pluralism. In fact you are asserting that Christianity has no form or meaning and that we cannot make distinctions between facts.

      There are certain tenets upon which Christianity stands upon that can be proven both Scripturally and Historically. If those foundations are marred by even the slightest means, it deviates from its proper form and function.

      What John Crowder and people like Todd Bentley are doing is blasphemous and heretical. If you can say that its OK for them to do the ungodly things they are doing, you are in essence you are saying we cannot know what God is like and we cannot diligently search the Scriptures to know God’s will. For instance, the word Trinity isn’t in the Bible, neither is the term Limited Atonement or the term Total Depravity – however these doctrines are not disproved from Scripture.

      And such is the nature of Christian doctrine, it can either be:

      a. Explicit – precisely and clearly expressed, with ready observation, appealing to the immediate faculties and cognition; not being left up to esoteric or mystical understanding.

      b. Implicit – that which is implied or expressed with reservation; that which is logically apparent or inherent in the nature of something.Through the careful analysis and synthesis of Bible passages, we can find indisputable support for or against something.

      So Mr Burton, you need to re-examine your position, because it is not biblical or historically compatible with Christianity.

  2. Mr PSb says:

    Oh boy….more Psuedo-Biblical Charismatic Existentialism. Its sad when people go as far to profane God’s holy name, using it as an excuse to indulge in their sinful passions.

  3. cherylu says:

    I remember a year or two ago when I read on at least one discernment blog site that Crowder and company were so far out that nobody would take them seriously and not to worry about them. How wrong that statement was! It is so sad that this type of thing is becoming more and more prevalent in the prophetic and NAR circles. You see Crowder and Dunn’s names popping up more and more in conjunction with the “Names” of the movement.

    I can’t even stand to watch the videos of these things any more. They are not only disgusting–they make me feel sick and defiled.

  4. David says:

    Leviticus 10:8-10
    Then the LORD said to Aaron, 9 “You and your sons are not to drink wine or other fermented drink whenever you go into the Tent of Meeting, or you will die. This is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. 10 You must distinguish between the holy and the common, between the unclean and the clean..”

  5. Robert says:

    Ephesians 5:18, tells us not to be drunk with wine, which leads to ruin, but to be filled with the Spirit.

    Quote :

    * This is not comparing the effects of an alcoholic stupor with being drunk in the Spirit. It is a contrast of opposites! Drunkenness removes self-control. The Holy Spirit produces the fruit of self-control (Galatians 5:23).

    * Verse 19 lists the results of being filled with the Spirit; praising lips, a praising heart, and a thankful attitude.

    What an insult to a Holy God, to attribute drunken behavior to His Holy Spirit! While the Bible never refers to being ‘drunk in the Spirit’, it contains numerous condemnations of drunkenness, and it does refer to spiritual drunkenness as a judgment from God. Consider the following passages:

    I have trodden down the peoples in My anger, made them drunk in My fury… Isaiah 63:6 NKJ

    “…Thus says the Lord: “Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land…with drunkenness! “And I will dash them one against another…(I) will destroy them” Jeremiah 13:13-14 NKJV

    “And they will drink and stagger and go mad because of the sword I will send among them.”
    Jeremiah 25:16 NKJV

    ‘Therefore you shall say to them, “Thus says… the God of Israel: “Drink, be drunk, and vomit! Fall and rise no more…”‘ Jeremiah 25:27 NKJV

    Quote :

    …..which leads to the $1,000,000 question — If no precedent is found in Scripture (indeed if the opposite is found), and if no examples are found in the writings of the Early Church, then what in the world are we permitting and perpetuating? If we open the door to the Flesh, or demonic deception, then all sorts of things will come through. We ignore Scripture at our own peril. We cannot afford to follow the traditions of men, and ignore God. 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 tells how God will send a strong delusion upon those who do not believe the truth, so we cannot afford to let things slide.

    One of the most serious things about this experience of being ‘drunk in the Spirit’, I believe, is that it makes a mockery of our holy God. It reduces Him to the level of Bacchus , the Greek and Roman god of wine and merrymaking. He is the divine bartender, handing out drinks, encouraging riotous behavior, playing to the laughing, staggering crowds. The ideal ‘worship’ service resembles a frat party beer bust. What a novel idea; come to Christ, not for forgiveness and cleansing, but for a buzz. Get your heavenly high! Fall down, not in holy fear and adoration, but in a spiritual intoxication. God must be deeply grieved at how easily we drag His name through the mud. How quickly we forsake the truth and chase after illusory experiences. If we can engage in carnival sideshow behavior in the name of worship, do we really understand our God at all? “

  6. John Burton says:

    This is such a HUGE point.

    I hear all the time comments like yours:

    “…it doesn’t matter what my opinion is in the end…what matters is God’s Word.”

    Of course God’s Word is what matters. But, surely you understand that many different branches of Christianity read some of the non-absolutes of scripture differently, right?

    Do you think your interpretation is the only one up for discussion?

    You simply can’t always say, “This is what this passage in the Bible means, and I don’t care if others disagree… so, therefore, I have determined that I’m right and you are a sinner, in error.”

    How arrogant.

    How many biblical issues can you think of that true, loving Christians disagree on?

    • Chrystal says:

      So, God’s Word doesn’t have a literal meaning?

      Do you really think the interpretation varies from person to person?

    • Robert says:

      I would think most of us are just trying to be courageous Bereans, rightly dividing the word of truth. Sure we can make mistakes, and disagree at times, like this morning I put on a black and white sock. But when it concerns major doctrinal error, so big you could drive a bobsled through ( its Olympic time ) it really must be addressed. After a while you can get so good at detecting the counterfeit, it becomes second nature.

  7. Robert says:

    Another point that needs to be made :

    Mystic John Crowder and his sidekick, Benjamin Dunn do appear to be drunk in the above clip. It would be more correct to say then that they were both drunk in A spirit, rather than being than drunk in THE spirit, ( which couldn’t happen Biblically )

    Indeed, if they were not drunk in a demonic spirit, then they are both faking it . After a while, if you fake a thing long enough, it begins to take hold of you, and the counterfiet becomes genuine, like the king who wore invisible clothes. The only other option would be that they are some other type of non-intelligent life form, but that would be too demeaning, so I won’t say that.

  8. John Burton says:

    I honestly find it strange that I have to explain this.

    Many different Christians hold to a variety of different view… even those who hold to a literal interpretation of scripture.

    There are contextual, cultural, etc. issues to consider.

    For example, many Christians are pre-trib rapture while others are post-trib.
    Some are cessationists while others are not.
    Some are Calvinist and others Armenian.

    Some believe extra-biblical concepts are ok as long as they aren’t unbiblical while others don’t view it that way.

  9. truthinator says:

    2Pe 1:19 {So} we have the prophetic word {made} more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.

    2Pe 1:20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is {a matter} of one’s own interpretation,

    2Pe 1:21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

    This is from the Bible. Many people may choose to interpret scripture based upon what they would prefer. Scripture, when taken in context, speaks very plainly. Read conservative commentators and you will pick up methods of avoiding common mistakes such as taking verses out of context, taking meaning you would like to find instead of what is there, and taking one-time or period specific events and bringing them into the present day.

    Peace.

  10. John Burton says:

    The point I’m making is that people can disagree. To call someone demonized just because you’re uncomfortable with something they do… something that the Bible is silent on… is way out of bounds. Your opinion isn’t that authoritative.

    What’s the point of doing it any way? Why talk about these people in negative ways? Who are you helping?

    Regarding extra-biblical revelation… so, you’re saying that people don’t have dreams and visions? Angelic encounters?

    Again, if you don’t believe that… that’s ok… I’m not going to call you demonized. We can just have a good time discussing differing viewpoints. But to slander and rip at people you’ve never met just because they adhere to differing perspectives on non-absolutes of scripture is just mean… and unnecessary.

    • Chrystal says:

      I see your point, John. The problem is, some people truly are demonized and are teaching doctrines of devils. Why expose them? Scripture tells us too. It also tells us to contend for the faith. That’s why we do it.

    • John Burton says:

      But, here’s the very big problem.

      There are people out there presuming to be the final authority on a person they don’t know, and are doing GREAT damage to the Kingdom by declaring them to be demonized.

      For example, I’m a fairly smart guy :), I’m a pastor, I’ve written five books, I travel and speak… I’m very serious about ‘strange fire’, about wrong doctrine.

      There are things that go on in certain Christian leader’s ministry… various ministry styles, emphasis, etc… that I am very comfortable with and very blessed by.

      Then, out of nowhere, someone online makes the final authoritative judgment that those very people are possessed by demons.

      Nobody consulted me. :) Do you see my point? Some of the people that are being defamed are those that many other solid, committed, devoted, studied Christians honor and respect.

    • Chrystal says:

      Let’s hope and pray John Crowder isn’t one of them. If so, the church is in even worse shape than I thought.

  11. David says:

    If an earthly Father left his children in the care of a babysitter or a nanny, and that nanny replaced the milk with spirits and plied those children and gotten them drunk – would that not be cause for concern? Would a neighbor or a sibling who witnessed this replacement of proper foods with wicked and improper substitutes be wrong in pointing out this grave concern and if need be confronting the worker of unrighteousness?
    The predators and perpetrators against the Father’s children wear all kinds of “fun” outfits and make up such outlandish and festive moods to lull the young ones into a sense of excitement – but we all know that their end goal is defilement.
    I don’t see any difference between these men who teach and preach such damnable heresy and lead others into the same deception that they have fallen into – and those who have been victims of sexual abuse and go on to introduce other children to the same abuse that destroyed their own innocence.
    They have been awakened to something real but horribly wrong, and go on to lure others into the same states of excitement and carnal indulging, though it destroys them so – they can’t help themselves and war against anyone who says otherwise.
    It is not a sound of war in the camp, but a sound of play. May God raise up voices of warning and truth and churches that are fearlessly devoted to Truth and purity.

  12. cherylu says:

    John Burton,

    There are several places in the New Testament where we are told to be sober–as in not drunk with wine. We are also told to be sober minded. Can you please tell me how this drunken behaviour and all of the manifestations that go with it fulfills the command to be sober minded? Not being at all in control of our faculties and being like a bunch of people that are either drunk or high or drugs seems to me to be the total opposite of being sober minded.

    • John Burton says:

      That is an excellent topic for a discussion like this.

      The idea of drunkenness in the Spirit is very, very debatable. There are points of discussion on both sides of the issue.

      I’ve heard people simply look at a YouTube video and watch people in a church service acting drunk, and making a final determination that they are demonized.

      I’d agree, if they are drunk on wine, they are biblically in error. That’s black and white. But, to say they ‘look’ like they are out of order, and then determine that they are driven by demons, it’s an inappropriate conclusion. The evidence for such a conclusion is lacking.

      For example, the Bible talks about doing everything decently and in order. I’ve seen people take this verse and use it as a weapon against people who are violating their own determination of what order actually is. Often people use that verse to control… they don’t like emotionalism, tears, groans, etc… so they pull out that verse and demand that the people ‘come to order’. The problem is that it’s ‘human order’ they are demanding and not God’s divine order.

      I’ve experienced some dramatic supernatural stuff… very powerful moves of the Holy Spirit… some might doubt that I’ve had dreams, visions, etc… doubt that I’ve encountered God in a tangible way… but, they simply don’t have enough evidence to the contrary.

  13. cherylu says:

    John Burton,

    Can you give us some convincing proof from the Scripture that drunkenness in the Spirit is really a Biblical thing and is from God?

    And I have seen absolutely nothing that convinces me that it is in fact Scriptural. In fact, the overwhelming evidence I see tells me otherwise.

    In fact where in the Scriputre can you come up with the idea of “tokin the Ghost”, drinking “God-ka” or a group of folks standing around in a circle drinking out of pretend straws from the center of the circle and getting drunk? That last is one a friend of mine came back from a conference talking about.

    Yes, John, I have been a part of this movement and I left it after several years as I just simply could not line up what I saw happening with the Sciptures in any way–no matter how real the experiences were.

    • John Burton says:

      We see strange, supernatural encounters all throughout scripture… but here’s the issue… you can’t find anything in scripture that explicitly renounces this behavior.

      To renounce something the Bible is silent on is to presume authority beyond scripture itself.

    • Chrystal says:

      I think one problem is that you don’t see this behavior as “riotous” or “wanton.” Staggering around drunk, slurred speech, drooling…

      When Scripture exhorts us to be sober minded, it’s a complete contradiction of the drunken manifestations experienced by charismatics. Makes one wonder why, if God so detests drunkenness (Romans 13:13; 1 Corinthians 5:11; 1 Corinthians 6:10), why He would affect people in a drunken manner. Hmmmm…. talk about a contradiction.

    • John Burton says:

      That’s your interpretation… that’s the whole point. I simply disagree… I feel that the Holy Spirit can influence is in dramatic ways.

      But, let’s say you are right… that doesn’t make these people evil, possessed, etc.

      If manefistations like this are possibly demonic… what is the enemy imitating? What types of extreme supernatural encounters would you presume to be holy?

    • Chrystal says:

      I agree that that doesn’t mean all these people are possessed…but they are spiritually blind and giving heed to seducing spirits. You don’t seem to want to read the parts of Scripture that tell us that in these last days there will be great deception and a great falling away.

      2Ti 3:1 ¶ This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
      2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
      2Ti 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
      2Ti 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
      2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
      2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

      Now, if you’re saying that there are some saved among this movement, you’re preaching to the choir here. I do believe there are some saved, not because of the movement, but in spite of it. If they truly walk in truth, they will come out of it. They have to. This forum is full of former charismatics who studied the Word and came out of it. They refused to embrace the false doctrine and mysticism being taught.

    • cherylu says:

      John,

      Did you ever wonder why these same type of manifestations are found in so many non Christian religions, occultic, and New Age groups? Do you think they are experineceing the Holy Spirit with out benefit of Jesus?

    • Mr PSb says:

      Mr John Burton,

      With all due respect, I’ve been listening to your views on this thread. And by the authority of the word of God I am calling you to repentance and the forgiveness of sins in Jesus’ name – for your false doctrine. Your are led astray and you are leading others astray and multiplying judgment unto yourself.

      I also would like to appeal to you and let you know that Christianity didn’t start at the 1906 Azusa Street Revival. Christianity has centuries of history under its belt and once your views do not conform to the Scripture and the clear established pattern we see in Church History it means you are dead wrong my friend.

      Call us close-minded judgmental Pharisees if you want to. I would like you to read up on other Charismatic groups throughout history such as the Montanists of the 2nd century, the Euchites of the 4th century and the Enthusiasts of the 15 century – they were all condemned as heretical and did they same heretical things seen by John Crowder and the rest of the Charismatic camp.

      It wouldn’t be a nice thing to stand before Christ on judgment day only to realize that you’re standing in front of a stranger, rather than a Saviour. God isn’t going to judge us by our own standards, please remember that, its not about my or your interpretation of Biblical texts. There is something as absolute truth. Jesus said that the way to eternal life is narrow – let’s not try to deceive ourselves by broadening it.

  14. cherylu says:

    John Burton,

    You still haven’t given us one convincing Scripture to show that drunkenness in the Spirit is Biblical.

    On the other hand, someone above did give a list of Sciptures that show that spiritual drunkenness is not a good thing. I’m not sure if someone already mentioned the Ephesians Scirpture that says to not be drunk with wine but be filled with the Spirit. It then goes on to tell us what to do while we are filled with Him: speaking, singing, giving thanks. Somehow it doesn’t sound very out of control to me. Notice it also says being drunk with wine is “dissipation”, (partial definition: abandoned, dissolute–lacking in moral restraint and indulging sensual pleasure and vices). If people act the same way when “drunk in the spirit” as they do when they are drunk with wine, aren’t they also engaging in dissipation? And if we have been told more then once to be sober minded, wouldn’t it seem logical to believe that to deliberately seek to be just the opposite would not be according to God’s will? So you may say that the Bible doesn’t come right out and say, “Don’t be drunk in the Spirit.” However, it certainly seems to me that the preponderance of evidence given in the Bible certainly makes the point that it is not His will for us to do so.

  15. John Burton says:

    Again, that’s your opinion… and that’s ok. As far as I’m concerned God may be moving powerfully in their lives.

    The main point is this- we have to be very, very careful not to defame or slandar someone just because ‘we think’ something is amiss. It’s irresponsible and presumpteous. Especially since people that are attacked have not usually been met and engaged in conversation and given the benefit of the doubt. They probably just differ on some of the non-essentials of scripture.

    People that are on the hunt for heresy are, in my opinion, in a very precarious place… it’s easy to venture close to blaspheming the Holy Spirit… attributing something of God to the devil.

  16. Chrystal says:

    And while we’re on the subject of how Christians are to behave, the Bible gives us the answer to this question. Here’s from the book of Titus:

    Titus 2:1-15:

    1 ¶ But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:
    2 That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.
    3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
    4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
    5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
    6 Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded.
    7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
    8 Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.
    9 Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again;
    10 Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.
    11 ¶ For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
    12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
    13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
    14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
    15 ¶ These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

  17. Chrystal says:

    Whoa, this forum is posting comments out of sync. Hope you guys can keep up with the flow of conversation this way. I don’t know what’s up with that.

  18. John Burton says:

    Regarding the New Age, etc. it’s a great observation. Thay have tapped into a counterfeit supernatural realm. If that’s the case, then what is the legitimate, holy supernatural realm like?

    We see all throughout scripture very dramatic, supernatural experiences occuring… Acts 2 drunkenness of course, Paul and John and others falling over as dead as they encountered God… Romans 8 groans of intercession, etc.

    We’re called to live and walk in the spirit… to pray in the spirit… to encounter God.

    • Chrystal says:

      The men in Acts chapter 2 weren’t drunk in any way, and even Peter said as much. Those who said they were drunk were mocking them.

      Acts 2:13-15:

      13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
      14 ¶ But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
      15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

  19. cherylu says:

    John,

    I believe that the Bible is the final authority for what we are to believe and how we are to act in our Christian walk and I have given numerous Scriptures that back up my opinion very strongly in my mind. Jude 3 does tell us to “contend earnestly for the faith once (or “once for all” depending on the version used) given to the saints. That is what I am trying to do here.

    As far as I know, unless I missed it, you haven’t given us one Scripture to back up your beliefs beyond alluding to “strange spiritual encounters” in the Bible. So, I’m sorry, but you haven’t been very convincing to me!

    By the way, one more thought, I can’t think of any of those “strange encounters” in the Bible that came as the result of people directly seeking them, can you? If there are any, I can’t think of them. Oh, there is one, Saul and the witch of Endor. And we know God wasn’t at all pleased with Saul because of that encounter! Other then that, they all seem to be given by a sovereign act of God at a specific time and for a specific purpose. They are not something we are told to seek after and deliberately go to conferences and meetings to find. That in itself speaks volumes to me on this whole subject.

    Have to be gone for the next couple of hours anyway….

    • John Burton says:

      I actually did share about the encounters in scripture. I’ll share them again:

      Paul’s dramatic encounter on the road to Damascua
      John, Mary and many others who had angelic encounters
      Paul going to the third heaven
      Acts 2 was a very unusual supernatural event

  20. unworthy1 says:

    Where in God’s word do we find supernatural/drunken encounters?!?
    What is the evidence of the Spirit of God in one’s life? Galatians 5:2,3, ‘But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.’ I see no drunken, mind altering state mentioned here.
    Now, what is the evidence of living according to the flesh? ‘Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.’ Gal. 5: 19-21

    There is nothing written in God’s word that states His Spirit induces a drunken state of mind. This is blashemous, ludicrous, and an outright lie. Mr. Burton, how dare you twist Holy Writ to justify your sinful passions and desires! You are just like the serpent, ‘did God re-e-e-ally say?’
    Your poor excuse of ‘what makes you think you have the right interpretation of the bible’ is the SAME excuse every heretic uses. Your arguments are nothing new, you have no way to defend your false beliefs other than to make accusations at those who profess God’s truth. The scriptures given here are not complicated, God forbids drunkenness, His word is crystal clear on that. God cannot lie, nor does He change His mind, God is immutable {For I am the LORD, I change not-Malachi 3:6}. When God calls something a sin, such as drunkenness, He will NOT induce a drunken state within His people; God is NOT a hyprocrite.
    From Eph. 5:18, ‘And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit’ . What does it look like when one is ‘filled with the Spirit’? It is a life totally surrendered to Christ, walking in obedience to His word. There is no resistance to His authority, no fulfilling fleshly desires. This verse is the clearest argument against this nonsense of being ‘drunk in the spirit’. Do NOT be drunk with intoxicating drink, instead be filled with God’s Spirit. See the contrast?
    True spirit-filled Christians are evidenced by their humility, love, boldness, zeal for God’s word, and desire for Christ to return.

    As for this comment, ‘We see strange, supernatural encounters all throughout scripture’…please, give us chapter and verse to back this.

  21. cherylu says:

    John,

    Regarding Acts 2 drunkenness. I do find it very significant that it is the mockers that thought them drunk. (Read that comment before my last reply to you, by the way.) If you say they are drunk because they must of been acting drunk for them to be accused of it–the usual explanation I hear–then Jesus must of been acting like a drunk and a glutton when He was accused of it too! And remember, that was in the context of physical eating and drinking–not spiritual drunkenness. And when He was accused of being demon possessed, He also must of been acting like it to give them a reason to say that about Him! If it works for one part of Scripture, it has to work for the rest doesn’t it? That logic falls apart completely, in my mind.

  22. Chrystal says:

    Okay, I’m going to go do my evening Bible study. I won’t be here to approve comments, but will approve any comments you all leave when I get back. That may be later tonight, or it may be tomorrow some time.

    Until then, keep looking to the author and finisher of our salvation, Christ Jesus our Lord.

    AND WHY ON EARTH DID IT PUT MY COMMENT ALL THE WAY UP HERE?!?! IT’S SUPPOSED TO BE DOWN THERE!!!!!

    ACK!

  23. Chrystal says:

    Okay, I fixed it. My last post is down here now.

  24. cherylu says:

    John,

    Your last comment about the encounters in Scripture with angels, etc. bear no resemblance that I can see to the drunkenness we see going on around us today. And I already gave my understanding about the supposed drunkenness in Acts 2. And again, none of those encounters was delibereatly sought out by these people to make them feel good and “high”.

  25. Mr PSb says:

    John,

    Again, those passages do not support the mysticism of the modern Charismatic movement and furthermore such encounters were not common. Apart from that, those accounts need to be taken in proper context to understand their meaning – not arbitrarily used to support unbiblical mysticism.

  26. Frank says:

    “Drunken in the Spirit is debatable”? Incorrect !

    Being “filled with the Spirit” (as the Bible says), is not “experiences” but behaving as Christ did. He is our model. Did Christ act like a drunken person? Absolutely not.

    Being filled with the Spirit is trying your best to live a Godly life and being anguished over lost souls that are not hearing the gospel. The OT says Christ would be a “man of sorrows” and he was.

    I’m afraid the postmodern society is looking for “signs and wonders”. Christ said none would be given. In fact, He said, “a wicked and adulterous generation seeks a sign.” Hence the deceptions we see today. They are not from God, period.

  27. shane says:

    it is sad that people defend these guys(crowder & dunn) but it is to be expected.

    Rev9:21 sorceries(KJV) definition(http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=G5331)

    I have yet to find where drunkeness and drug use were thought highly of in the Bible. It makes me wonder why the Holy Spirit would cause someone to act like they are using such substances. Perhaps it is not the Holy Spirit, perhaps it could just be God giving depraved people what they want. I would lean more toward the latter.

  28. cherylu says:

    Chrystal quoted us the whole second chapter of Titus in one of her comments. Reading through that description of how we as Christians are supposed to live sounds about as opposite of going and seeking drunken or drug high spiritual experiences as you can get.

  29. cherylu says:

    John,

    Did you read the whole article that Chrystal had linked? The reporter actually did refer to the atmosphere at Sloshfest as “debauched”. Don’t you find it even a little bit disturbing that people that are supposed to be under control of our altogether holy and righteous, almighty and sovereign God of the universe are said by a man that is apparently an unbelieiver to be partying in a way that is “debauched”?

    Frankly, I think that is why I can’t watch this stuff much any more. That is the way it comes across to me too.

  30. IWTT says:

    1Therefore, since through God’s mercy we have this ministry, we do not lose heart. 2Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God.

    John,

    Stop distorting….

  31. seeker3k says:

    Followers of charismatic witchcraft and mysticism do not fear the Lord

    Mysticism and charismatic witchcraft come from >familiar spirits, which is the opposite of >the fear of the Lord.

    John Crowder, Brandon Barthrop, Rick Joyner, Todd Bentley, and others like them are practicing sorcery and giving visible demonstrations of various abominations predicted in the Bible.

    The associated manifestations (mental euphoria, body vibrations, twitching, slurred speech, gibberish speech and sound effects, animal acts – dogs, chickens, lions, snakes, etc., staggering about, falling over (“slain”), and having uncontrollable/irrational laughter) testify the familiar spirits that have anointed the paticipators.

    2 Thes 2:9-12 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

    Psalm 12:8 The wicked prowl on every side, When vileness is exalted among the sons of men.

    Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” (NKJV)

    “The new mystics” are the old sorcerers in new clothes, invoking annointing from demons:

    Deut 32:17 They sacrificed to demons, which are not God–gods they had not known, gods that recently appeared, gods your fathers did not fear.

    Sorcery – Strong’s G5331 – pharmakeia
    1) the use or the administering of drugs
    2) poisoning
    3) sorcery, magical arts, often found in connection with idolatry and fostered by it
    4) metaph. the deceptions and seductions of idolatry

    The above 4 items are probably the devil’s job description for John Crowder and other sorcerers.

    1 Corinthians 10:5-9 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
    Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted.
    And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.”
    Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell;
    nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents (NKJV).

    John Crowder is inciting people to “rise up and play” and to “tempt Christ” by mocking him with rhetoric that associates him with drugged/drunk/mental illness.

    2 Peter 2:17-22 These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm.
    Blackest darkness is reserved for them.
    For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error.
    They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity–for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him.
    If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.
    It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.
    Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.”

    Don’t be surprised if dog barking, pig snorting, and mud wallowing become another of John Crowder’s manifestations.

    Participators in charismatic witchcraft and mysticism do not fear the Lord (of Genesis 1:1).
    They attempt to invoke God to indulge them with flesh experiences, which he will not comply with.

    The improper attempts lead to accepting and participating in the devil’s entertainments.

    Participators are following a false Christ “drunkJesus” or “clownJesus”, created through false teaching, leading to wickedness:

    Psalm 36:1 An oracle is within my heart concerning the sinfulness of the wicked: There is no fear of God before his eyes.

    If the fear of the Lord returned to churches/fellowships, then repentance from participating in the devil’s entertainments through mysticism and charismania would occur:

    Exodus 20:20 “…. God has come to test you, so that the fear of God will be with you to keep you from sinning.”

    Leviticus 19:31 Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.

    Isaiah 8:13 The LORD Almighty is the one you are to regard as holy, he is the one you are to fear, he is the one you are to dread

    Luke 12:4-5 “I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.”

    Prov 14:26-27 He who fears the LORD has a secure fortress, and for his children it will be a refuge. The fear of the LORD is a fountain of life, turning a man from the snares of death.

    Psalm 128:1 Blessed are all who fear the LORD, who walk in his ways.

    Antics that simulate drugged/drunken/mentally ill are not God’s ways.

  32. Craig Lee says:

    John Burton:

    You wrote:

    Regarding the New Age, etc. it’s a great observation. Thay have tapped into a counterfeit supernatural realm. If that’s the case, then what is the legitimate, holy supernatural realm like?

    I’ve seen you set up this false dichotomy before. There doesn’t have to be a flip-side to every or any New Age experience.

  33. John Burton says:

    The problem we’ll run into is the issue of extra-biblical occurrences. I believe there’s a difference between unbiblical and extra-biblical. Others do not see any difference at all.

    Often times if someone doesn’t find a manifestation of God’s activity explicitly written about in the bible, they throw it out. Or, even worse, the condemn it as Satanic.

    So, if someone trembles or shakes or something like that, it can be easy to roll your eyes or turn up your nose.

    That’s why you see all over the place online quotes like, “I demand that you show me where such and such is found in scripture!”

    It would be just as easy to retort by saying, “Well, find in scripture where it’s condemned.”

    Also, what often happens is an inaccurate analysis of a situation.

    For example, someone may see someone drunk in the Holy Spirit and they will use scripture about being sober… they presume the person to be inebriated by some unholy element, when in truth they don’t have enough data for a full diagnosis.

    I’ve heard people say that God wouldn’t have people ‘lose control’ and wouldn’t cause someone to be unable to stop manifesting. The reality is that God wants us to surrender control… but, also, I’ve never been impacted by God in such a way that I couldn’t stop manifesting if I so chose. It’s not that people can’t stop, it’s that they choose to stay in that place of encounter.

    Honestly, I’m exceedingly concerned when people who are in the Word of God aren’t experiencing a mighty manifestation of God’s presence. As potent as God’s Word is, we should be drawn into the supernatural realm of encounter. God is real. It’s one thing to know about God and it’s a whole different thing to know God intimately.

    What does it feel like when God personally touches a human? Man, if a mere angel can cause people to tremble and fall to the ground, what happens when God himself shows up?

    Again, he’s real. He’s not a concept or a principle. He’s real. He can be felt. He can be encountered. He’s still doing things. Dreams, visions, etc. are very real and very biblical. There is an invisible, supernatural realm that we are to live in… and it’s very different than what we can discern with our five senses.

    • Chrystal says:

      Yet you leave out the fact that these manifestations contradict how we are told to behave. Why would God tell us to behave in a sober manner and then influence us to act opposite of that?

  34. truthinator says:

    John, if you are being honest, then I am deeply concerned about your level of understanding of the Bible. Charistmatics and Pentecostals have traditionally run to extremes with a hand full of scriptures taken entirely out of context. It sounds like you are endorsing words of men with no tie back to scripture at all. Nothing should be taught to others that cannot be verified in scripture. Crowder is practicing witchcraft (dual appearances, unverifiable visions, spontaneous drunkeness…).

    Come out of this type of heresy before it is too late. I pray that you will.

    Chrystal,

    Thanks for exposing Crowder but this type of thing also gives him a platform of sorts. A connundrum, I suppose…
    T.

  35. John Burton says:

    This is a scriptural reference that there’s disagreement on. Some people presume this to mean that we stand up straight an tall, don’t be too emotional, etc. I don’t see it to mean that at all.

    In context, it means literally not to be drunk on wine… alcohol.

    You can also read into it the idea of temperance. The idea is that we are not to be controlled or under the heavy influence of counterfeits… of mind-altering drink, or idolatrous devotion.

    It in now way means that we are not to experience God in a way that causes us to tremble.

    What about John falling over as dead? That’s not ‘sober’ as some would define it… what if everybody in a church fell over in this fashion? Is that out of order?

    I wonder what you all think of the Azusa Street revival?? What do you think about this report:

    Consider the following happening today. How would we react?

    Christians from many traditions were critical, saying the movement was hyper-emotional, misused Scripture and lost focus on Christ by overemphasizing the Holy Spirit.[9] Within a short time ministers were warning their congregations to stay away from the Azusa Street Mission. Some called the police and tried to get the building shut down.[10] Scholarly preachers spoke harshly of the revival meetings; such as R. A. Torrey who declared that this new Pentecostal movement was “emphatically not of God, and founded by a Sodomite.” G. Campbell Morgan called it, “the last vomit of Satan.” Harry Ironside said it was “disgusting … delusions and insanities.” Clarence Larkin and many others were also openly critical. By the time the revival ended, it was thought by some that it was the result of Spiritualism. This was thought due to the fact that many occultists and spiritists attended the meetings and were comfortable in their midst.[15]capture-00001-3-11-2009

    That was a report on one of the worlds most powerful revivals in history! Azusa! People were warned to stay away. It was declared to be not of God, disgusting and the vomit of Satan! My God. Are we really ready? I nearly have tears in my eyes as I write this. Please God, bring revival. Please, all of us, allow it.

  36. cherylu says:

    John,

    Why aren’t you happy to stay with the kinds of manifestations shown us in Scripture that God gives where and whenever He wants? Why do you insist that when God “shows up” we are going to do things that are the opposite of what He has already told us to do? And why when God has given us His instructions on how we are to live in the Bible and told us that it is the “faith once delievered to the saints”, do you assume that every supernatural drunken experience that a Christian has that runs counter to those instructions is automatically from Him? Why do you do that specifically when we find no experiences in the Bible that are even vaguely similar even if they are supernatural, specially when the places we do see these same types of experiences happening all of the time is in false religions, the occult, and the new age????

    My outline of what is happening here:

    A. The Bible commands us to to be sober and condemns drunkeness.

    B. This type of behaviour isn’t shown as something that should happen to Christians in the Bible.

    C. This type of behaviour does happen with great regularity in the occult, false religions, and the new age.

    D. Logical conclusion?? This behaviour is NOT of God!

    Just a couple of more points. I have heard it said over and over that people CAN’T stop the manifestaions. You say that they can be stopped. Sometimes that is true from the testimonies of others, and sometimes it simply is not.

    You also say we are to surrender control to God. That is very true. But He has also showed us in His Word repeatedly what that surrender looks like. Galatians 5 and the fruits of the Spirit are one. The Ephesians Scripture that speaks of being filled with the Spirit and what we do when we are is another. In other words, NO WHERE in the Bible do we have even a hint that surrendering to the power of the Holy Spirit will produce the types of manifestations that are being discussesd here.

    And as I believe I mentioned in a comment above, the writer of the article that Chrystal posted was evidently an unbeliever. Yet he spoke of the atmosphere at this Sloshfest party as being “debauched”. “Debauched” does not sound much like the result of a holy and righteous God at work does it? If even an unbeliever can recognize that there is something unholy going on here, how much more should we as Christians be able to recognize it.

  37. John Burton says:

    Have you ever experienced the glory of the Lord? What did it feel like to you?

    I think a 2 Chron 7 reality in our churches would be amazing.

    2 Chronicles 7:1-3 (NIV) 1 When Solomon finished praying, fire came down from heaven and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices, and the glory of the Lord filled the temple. 2 The priests could not enter the temple of the Lord because the glory of the Lord filled it. 3 When all the Israelites saw the fire coming down and the glory of the Lord above the temple, they knelt on the pavement with their faces to the ground, and they worshiped and gave thanks to the Lord, saying, “He is good; his love endures forever.”

    • Chrystal says:

      And, how many temples are we going to build in order for this to happen?

      This isn’t going to happen in our church. This was during the dedication of Solomon’s Temple when the Shekinah glory came down. We have God’s revelation to man, Jesus Christ. Now the Spirit indwells the believer.

      John, you are so distracted by seeking Holy Spirit manifestations and experiences. Our main passion should be to know nothing but Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

  38. cherylu says:

    John,

    Part of what you quoted above about Azusa street was this: “This was thought due to the fact that many occultists and spiritists attended the meetings and were comfortable in their midst.[15]capture-00001-3-11-2009″

    That whole idea seems more then a little incongruous to me. In a revival is not the Holy Spirit at work bringing conviction of sin and repentance? How then could people that were spiritists and occultists be comfortable in His presence? After all, these are things that He has soundly condemned. If there was spiritualism going on there, I think a more rational explanation then that must be found for it.

  39. John Burton says:

    Did you all read the report from Azusa above? Do you not feel you are doing the same thing?

    And, when people say, “I couldn’t stop the manifestation,” they most certainly mean that the encounter was so strong… overwhelming.

    We could renounce that activity… it would be an extreme measure, but God would honor it.

    Have any of you ever experienced the weighty, tangible glory of God? I’m not trying to sound like an elitist… just wondering if we you have experienced it and shut it down or if you haven’t ever experienced it at all.

    Most people (not all) who are in the camp you all seem to be in have never had an encounter like that.
    In fact, when I travel and minister and I ask the question, “Who here has never heard God, never had a dream or prophetic word or that still small voice…” the high majority raise their hands.

    Many, many Christians haven’t encountered God… it’s a core part of my message and ministry… to help people learn to walk in the Spirit, experience deliverance, break out in ‘groans that can’t be uttered’, etc… so as to advance the Kingdom of God… to make it easy for people to know Jesus, to deeply and intimately love him.

  40. John Burton says:

    Surely you aren’t distancing yourself from Azusa, are you??? One of the greatest moves of God in history? Did I misunderstand you?

  41. John Burton says:

    Wow… That’s hard to imagine. I think you must just misunderstand some things… about God’s manifest presence.

    Are you opposed to all supernatural type occurances? What about speaking in tongues?
    Scripturally we are all to seek the gift of prophecy… what is your opinion on stuff like this? Groans that can’t be uttered?

  42. Mr PSb says:

    Dear John Burton,

    Please receive our words with love: it is becoming even more clear as you speak on this thread that you don’t love the Bible – you seem to love mysticism and the occult. ‘The secret things, belong to the Lord and the things revealed belong to us’ (Deut 29:29). We urge you to repent, you are on the broad road to destruction – you, those that follow you and those whom you follow.

    I state without apology that the Azusa Street Revival and all the other revivals that came after that was not of God. These were not true revivals because they produced no good fruit – doctrinal error, mysticism, resurrected heresies etc. Apart from that its roots (directly and indirectly) came from men who were quite questionable: Charles Fox Parham, William J. Seymour, Charles Finney, John Alexander Dowie etc.

    Please John, we are calling you to repentance for your false doctrine. We wouldn’t be here on this thread with you if we didn’t see the danger in your assertions.

  43. John Burton says:

    Thanks for your concern… but, honestly, I have the same sort of concern for you.

    I don’t know you well enough to cast any sort of judgment, but I’d just caution you to be careful not to have a form of godliness while denying the power.

    Also, be very, very careful about rushing to judgment yourself. You just don’t know me… or others like me.

    All you have to do is ask if I’m involved in the occult… and I’d tell you… of course not.

    That’s actually pretty silly!

    I bet you’d have more success (though I’m not sure the type of success you are looking for is a good thing!) if you were more childlike… (not you specifically… all the folks in this camp) and loved people very deeply… and enjoyed healthy conversation.

    I’m having a good time discussing all of this with you!

    While many pull the ‘Pharisee’ card… when judging folks in this camp, I’m more concerned with the Saducee spirit associated with it.

  44. cherylu says:

    John,

    Remember that many, many of us here have been a part of this movement. And many of us have had to rethink and re-evaluate what we have believed and also often what we have experienced.

    I have certainly known the “still small voice” of God many times. I have also had umpteen grandiose prophetic words given to me. Only one that I can remember could in any way said to be fulfilled. I have given prophetic words and impressions that haven’t come true. Three seperate churches that I was involved in during this time had grandiose prophetic words given to them about the huge works of God that they were going to spearheading in our area. Guess what?? None of that happened either! The churches ended up having church splits or dissolving altogether–great revival that one!! Another church had a member say they believed God had told Him that we in the valley had two years to get ready for the huge revival God was going to pour out here. Know what–that was about 5 years or so ago and there is still no sign of any huge revival. Two of these churches have had unofficial ties to Bethel in Redding and there have been big name speakers in so it is not like they have been little off the wall groups that don’t know what they are doing. People are connected to the Healing Roomsand go to big name conferences. Some have been to Toronto quite a few times. People also go to Bethel for conferences and some have gone there for their training school.

    I say all of that so that you will know that I have truly been involved with this. And the more I saw, the more I questioned. The more I questioned and started looking at what was going on, the more convinced I became that I had been “sold a bill of good”.

    And there were times when the atmosphere and what was going on took on a “feel” to it that was far from holy. Some times it took all I could do to stay because there was a presence there of something so unholy that it was almost intolerable. But it was welcomed as the very presence of the Lord by almost everyone else there.

  45. James Jones says:

    I think you are all to kind to John he is never going to come to his senses, he is given over to a different Jesus and different spirit, a wolf, a hireling, an enemy of God.
    You can call me narrow minded, unloving or what ever you want. This trying to dialog with him is just a big waste of time.
    James Jones

  46. Doug says:

    A nice quiet thread, where there are no disagreements…nope!
    To John Burton: Susa is in the Bible, but not Asuza St. do you realize that Chrystal and I and many others here are former Pentecostals whom God led out of Pentecostalism? We aren’t lifelong Baptists who have no clue as to Asuza St or the arguments put forth by Pentecostals. We’ve been there. We aren’t there anymore by God’s Grace.
    In my case, I measured Pentecostal beliefs against Scripture, specifically the doctrines of the Assemblies of God church I was attending. God showed me that they were believing erroneous things. I wouldn’t try to argue you out of a single docrtinal position, as I know how well that works. But i invite you to do as I did, check the Doctrines against Scripture and ask God to show you the truth.
    Good luck.

  47. Brantley Smith says:

    Just so ya know Chrystal, I don’t approve of this stuff :)
    The Holy Spirit is the second person of the trinity. Though there are references to wine it is not in a demeaning way. We must treat the holy spirit as a person not someone you can throw around or smoke. He is God.

    • Chrystal says:

      Brantley, it’s a relief to know that. There are some streams that are too far out for even the most devoted charismatics. However, Mike Bickle has and does endorse John Crowder. That’s not a secret. That speaks much of his Biblical knowledge and discernment.

  48. unworthy1 says:

    John Burton, you seek a god you can experience, you need an emotional high, something tangible. However, that is not found anywhere in the God of the bible’s word. He commands us to worship in spirit and in truth. We worship God how He’s revealed in His word, with reverence and fear. We praise Him, singing songs, psalms, hymns. We do not stumble around in some sort of mind altered state, faking feelings and emotions, babbling words that make no sense, flopping around like fish out of water, etc.
    What you are doing is twisting God’s word to justify your fleshly style of worship. You do not seek to honor and glorify the one true God, you seek thrills and experiences for ‘self’…then you sin by boasting about your experiences. You have been given ample scriptures describing the biblical understanding of being filled with the Spirit, yet, you ignore them all. You have no interest in the true truth; therefore, there comes a point when we all must dust off our feet and lift you to the God of the bible. I pray my brothers and sisters here will do just that.

  49. Teddy says:

    I totally agree with Mr PSb regarding Azuza Street – after 22 years of charismania, spending time initially listening to John Macarthur and reading his book “Charismatic Chaos” ( the book made me very angry at first because I didn’t want to accept I might be wrong), my husband and I finally had the “scales” drop of our eyes.

    John is in a place where we once were, so I understand his ardent defense. The Lord is graciously drawing many people out of these movements, and I guarantee, it’s a painful experience but worth the journey into truth. I’m no longer “charismatic” but more in love and overwhelmed by Christ and His Word than I ever was in the past. We attend a solid bible-teaching, God -fearing, God-reverenced little church now. We can ask questions knowing that our minister is trained to deliver the gospel correctly. Gifts of the Spirit? In abundance, not tongues or flakiness but gifts distributed through the Body evidenced by the fruit of the Holy Spirit. Had the “experiences”, saw the crazy stuff, believed it was the Holy Spirit – all I can say is RUN!!!!!!

    Run to the safety of His sure Word revealed to us in the finished work of Christ.

  50. Robert says:

    I remember Hank Hanegraaf once said, ” Over the years I have recieved hundreds of letters from people immersed in the Faith movement ( or otherwise ) who were completely oblivious to the rank heresy they were being fed – individuals who have said, ” Until I saw the evidence with my very own eyes,I was not willing to accept it. ” For this reason we must take care to judge the theology of the faith movement rather than those being seduced by it.

    If you decide that this movement ( John Crowder, Benjamin Dunnis, Vineyard, ect. ) portrays a valid expression of Christianity then in all fairness you should also embrace as fellow believers the Mormens, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Christian Scientists, and a host of other groups normally thought of as cults.

  51. nickleback says:

    I think it’s been said but I’ll say it again;

    “these people are behaving in a drunken manner even though they have ingested no drugs or alcohol”

    Hmmm..sounds like an exert from the Bible to me..Acts 2:14-20

    As for ‘God-ka’..blugh, sounds like some e-grade alcohol to me…give me real Vodka any day! Much rather have a tumbler of NZ’s 42Below on some rocks, smooth on the tongue, rough after bite.

    • Chrystal says:

      This has been answered and I’ll answer it again. The people in Acts chapter 2 were not acting drunk. They were accused of being drunk by mockers, yet Peter said, “These are not drunk as you suppose.”

      Read it again in context.

  52. nickleback says:

    oh and for the record…the Bible is a story about God revealing himself to his people (Israel) and (now) gentiles – pretty much the rest of the world – so who is to say that God isn’t STILL revealing himself to us (his church)…I’d say he still is…and dang straight Gods a party God, me and him are going to cut some shapes and shuffle HARD when I get to heaven.

  53. Carol says:

    The problem with organized Christianity, is the obvious divisions among them. Rather than standing on God’s Word, it’s more like each sect’s opinion of what God’s Word is to them.

    People who stand for the Word of God totally and completely are considered judgmental by those who are liberal in their ideas of what Christianity ought to be. It seems in the past few years the popular opinion of most of these false teachers is take anything carnal and stick Christian or Biblical terminology and slap, there’s some new “movement” and a mass of blind sheep follow blind guides.

    It doesn’t matter the “movement” or the name of the “leader”, if it’s fleshly and amusing and appealing to the senses, it’s not of God.

    And even when someone tries to point people to read the Bible, they don’t want to read any of the traditional translations, they want their cultural, and paraphrased perVersion to support their ideas.

  54. Doug says:

    I’m getting a flashback. I once spent a weekend argufighting through emails with another John who had visited my site. His arguments as to why Christians were fools to believe in God were bulletproof, meaning that he was so educated so as to be impervious to reason and logic. He was going to a Divinity School in Chicago, paying a horrendous amount of money to be mis-educated.
    Ah well. Church was good tonight, and attempting to reason with the unreasonable will have to wait for another day.

  55. Frank says:

    God is not the author of confusion.

    Guess who is ?

  56. jude newman says:

    nickleback
    I would suggest you read Revelations. God is a holy God. We are to have reverence and awe toward Him. Yes God is still revealing Himself to us- in His Word. The more we understand the Scriptures, the more our Father and His character are revealed to us. I fail to see how the blasphemous acts and speech of these people honour or bring glory to Him. As the end draws nearer and the apostasy gets worse I feel grief, and a lot of pain for the state of the church. It is a comfort and earnest expectation knowing my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is coming back for His bride, the church, it is also a time of great heartache for how bad things are becoming. The Bible tells us things will get a lot worse before the end. Yet these people think christianity is an endless party. They live to satisfy the evil desires of the flesh. They mock all things honourable and holy and make it common, because if it wasn’t degraded and make common they wouldn’t want it. Following these people will bring you eternal destruction

  57. Paul says:

    Teddy that’s a beautiful story. Mine is a similar one, I had been in the charismatic wing for 19 years. Thank God he snatched me out of the madness and placed me on the straight and narrow. I would not touch it ever again with a fifty foot pole.
    Nickleback you are only trolling to get a reaction and it won’t work, your just not subtle enough! Crowder sadly is a ( spiritually )dead man walking, best advice would be to avoid him.
    There is no point in trying to help guys like this and any who try to justify their blasphemy are playing the devil’s advocate.
    John Burton sorry mate but really you have nothing to offer. No biblical argument to justify the Crowderites and as for Holy Ghost power that charismatics speak of it’s the proverbial king in his clothes, Hans Christian Andersen story with all too few little boys saying the king is naked!

  58. David says:

    Self absorbed religion is rebellion. Lucifer led the first self centered movement, and such parties and festivals like this one “Sloshfest” have the exact same Modus operandi.
    Unlike western laws of economics, “the customer is not always right” when it comes to the things of God.
    On the throne that Crowder and Co exalt sits man. Man is free to revel in the riches of God they proclaim, and it is not only Godly to want to FEEL pleasures carnally having their origins in spiritual murkiness, but they teach that not receiving this “bliss” is unbelief.
    Were Aaron’s son’s commended for their “faith” in presenting strange fire before God? No. Were the people scolded for not receiving “the new thing” and “new fire” because of unbelief? No. We all know the story. God’s anger burnt against Aaron’s sons and He consumed them in fire.
    Those things that have a form of Godliness but deny the power of the gospel are the most dangerous to the undiscerning Christian.
    From Page 1 of the Bible to the last page, God has never shown His nature like this. He has never spoken forth His nature as such, and He has never presented anything Godly as having to do with self absorbed revelry and a lack of self control.
    We have seen however, the idolatry and paganism of drunkenness and a casting off of self restraint throughout the Bible.
    Crowder and Co slander God and His nature & that is one of my chief objections to their teachings. They present a version of God of their own imaginings, justified by twisted scripture and enforced by demonic spirits. Satan will feed you serpents flesh cut up like fish fillets if it means you will fill up on the poison and skip the Lamb of Passover.
    In the Proverbs The harlot makes herself a viable option to the young fool by flattery and the temptation of abandoned guilt free indulgence. “My husband is away on a journey” “I have perfumed my bed with myrrh, aloes and cinnamon. ” “Come, let’s drink deep of love till morning; let’s enjoy ourselves with love! “.. listen to Crowder preach and discern by the Spirit and you will hear the same words of flattery and temptation to indulge in unGodly, unbiblical and impure lusts of self glorying and revelry.

    If God is not spiritually real to you, you will try to make him appealing to the flesh. If God’s Word is not sufficient for your carnal mind, you will seek to sensationalize the things of God with words of fleshly appeal.
    Proverbs 7
    21
    With persuasive words she led him astray;
    she seduced him with her smooth talk.

    22 All at once he followed her
    like an ox going to the slaughter,
    like a deer [b] stepping into a noose [c]

    23 till an arrow pierces his liver,
    like a bird darting into a snare,
    little knowing it will cost him his life.

  59. seeker3k says:

    >> John Burton 14/2/10 2:16pm “Have any of you ever experienced the weighty, tangible glory of God?”

    John Burton you are insulting the Holy Spirit by trying to defend association of him with acts of drugged/drunken/mental illness.

    People who turn up drunk at work get fired.

    People who get drunk with “familiar spirits” from Lucifer will get fired into the lake of fire, if they don’t repent prior.

    John Crowder’s “heavy, weighty, drunken glory” may be a premonition of the weight of a millstone:

    Luke 17:1-2 Jesus said to his disciples: “Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come. It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin.

    John Burton, your defence of perverted spiritual acts contributes to “causing one of these little ones to sin” (causes them to mock and blaspheme God by fornicating with his opposition – familiar spirits).

    John Crowder’s mocking ministry is not to the unsaved, as they are usually repulsed by his bizarre acts which are identical to mental illness or drunken / drugged.

    However John’s acts would appeal to people already involved in occult and “New Age” false christ pursuits.

    John’s ministry causes corruption of existing christians by encouraging them to mock God with improper revelry, and form relationships with Satan’s minions, “familiar spirits”, and so reclaim Christians for the Devil.

    1 John 4:1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

    Matthew 24:10-13 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

    Getting drunk and falling down is the opposite of standing firm.

    The “slain in the spirit” (falling down) phenomena is not from God of Gen 1:1, it is from “god of this age” 2 Cor 4:4
    The only exception is falling down after being killed by God for wrongdoing (eg. Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5:1-11).

    Slain means being killed.

    Instead of teaching people to fear the lord, John Crowder is teaching them to treat God as an object to be indulged, like a prostitute for sex lust and drunken dissipation.

    John Burton, you are defending this wickedness.
    Are you following a false christ?
    DrunkJesus?
    ClownJesus?
    MadJesus?

    Matthew 24:24 …false Christs and false prophets will appear ……….to deceive……

    2 Cor 11:4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.

    John Burton, you are “putting up with it easily enough”.

    It is deception and blasphemy to associate Crowder’s spiritual immoralities with “the joy of the Lord” mentioned in the Bible.

    Rom 13:12-14 The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light. Let us walk properly, as in the day, not in revelry and drunkenness, not in lewdness and lust, not in strife and envy. But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts.

    Manifestations from “familiar spirits” might feel good, but immoral activities always do feel good, such as drunkenness, drug taking, and fornication/adultery.

    Following mystical ways is involvement in the magic arts (mystical = mystery).

    The only response from participators is either accepting the certainty of damnation to Hell, or repenting while there is still opportunity.

    Rev 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars –their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.

    Proverbs 14:12, 16:25 There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death

    1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

    Psalm 111:10-112:1 The fear of the lord is the beginning of wisdom; all who follow his precepts have good understanding. To him belongs eternal praise.
    Praise the LORD. Blessed is the man who fears the lord, who finds great delight in his commands.

    Am I being judgemental of John Crowder?

    No, I am only giving judgement warning.

    Judgement day happens after we die: Hebrews 9:27 “….man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment”

    Until then we have opportunity to change (repent) of wrongdoing, to avoid disaster.

    This is what John Crowder and all others who participate in similar ways should do.

  60. David says:

    “Have you ever felt the weight of God’s presence” – John, I will ask you – Have you ever discerned false spirits? Have you ever been in a meeting where it was “off”? Where there was a bible on the pulpit and worship-type music playing but an ungodly medium laying hands on people and spirits in the room romping around with parishioners? I have , and it felt very strong and powerful and yet it was not the same presence and anointing of God in which I have also known.
    I can honestly say there are lying spirits which certain ministers travel with and open themselves up to. Yes, familiar spirits. Spirits familiar with the man/woman that have been duped by “the light” of the angel/spirit and not by the Sole exaltation of Jesus.
    The first thing the “angel” of light will tell the spiritually hungry minister, time and time again from William Branham to Todd Bentley to Mohamed to Joseph Smith is this – “YOU are SPECIAL” “YOU have been CHOSEN” “This is NEW, UNKNOWN TILL NOW, REVEALED TO YOU” – The verse “I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me” becomes null and void because a spirit of deception becomes the power source for such individuals & on hand working in words of knowledge just like Jonathan Edwards and other occultic spiritists do, manifesting in writhing and ravaging encounters and yielding fruit EXACTLY OPPOSITE TO THE FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT.
    To answer your question John, there is a difference between the Spirit of God and spirits of drunkenness/fire/”glory” etc. One glorifies Jesus, the other glorifies the flesh. Go to a meeting plead the blood of Jesus and claim His Lordship in humility and ask for discernment and you will start to see little by little these displays of revelry are bull.

  61. Bill Fawcett says:

    OK, for the sake of contrasting clear scripture with Crowderesque behaviour, I would like to present this video of a Crowder communion service. This is not for the faint of heart.

    Watch the bottles.

    If I wanted a video clip to illustrate what 1 Corinthians 11:20-22 was talking about, I would probably use this video clip for starters.

    IHOP’s Wes Hall has attempted to advance an apologetic of “Spritual Drunkenness,” but I don’t think he did a very good job. Of course, He was drunk at the time.

    http://beyondgrace.blogspot.com/search/label/Drunkenness

  62. Bill Fawcett says:

    John (Bob),

    You attempt to lend credibility to your argument by stating that you “written five books.” Actually, I am aware of 9 that you have written, starting with “Christian, Catholic and Praising Jesus,”

    Now everyone knows Authorhouse and Xulon are vanity presses. What’s your deal with Revival Nation- were those a straight self-publishing contract or was it a minimum order + royalty deal?

    Anybody can self-publish.

  63. Mike A says:

    #1. Replace Mr Crowder’s use of the word “mystic” with the word “gnostic” and read 1 John – the whole book.

    #2 the Apostle in the 3rd heaven: 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
    A. Paul clearly states he could not talk about his experienc other than “hey-it happened”.
    B. A one time biblical encounter does not make the event normative….we also don’t see talking donkeys much either. Or entire cities destroyed. (Forgiveness, now that is an ongoing theme we see repeated as is love, salvation through Christ alone etc.)

    #3. Ephesians 5:18 has no place in this matter; don’t try to make it fit.

  64. David T says:

    Wow, I don’t post on this site for a few days and BAM your site explodes with comments and postings Chrystal. LOL

    Anyway, I am not a former Charismatic because I never grew up in the Charismatic circle. I wasn’t a believer until around the age of 21. And with that, I became more of one of the seeker-sensitive types. I was brainwashed by the likes of Warren, Hybels, Osteen, etc. It wasn’t until a few years ago when I got out of a Baptist Church and a so-called Christian college over in Central Oregon that was awash in the Seeker-Sensitive stuff that I truly became a believer because Christ called me out of that by His word.

    I agree with all that are talking with John Burton about this because what Crowder & Dunn are doing is definitely not of God. The spirits have been tested like we are commanded to do and they do not line up with the word of God.

  65. Denise says:

    John Burton and those who defend the Crowder types (caps for emphasis only–not for shouting):

    It sure would be nice if YOU used the phrase “in my opinion” a little bit more.

    Is it not possible that WE love Jesus and know what is of Him by knowing the Word and having the spiritual gift of knowledge and wisdom?

    YOU do not realize that there Christians who not only DO believe this stuff isn’t from God, but can demonstrate by Scripture how unbiblical it is.

    It would be much better if YOU admitted you are human and suceptable to being incorrect at times…In fact it would be much better if you admitted that its POSSIBLE he is deceived and that its POSSIBLE you are too.

    If there are valid differeing views, then who are YOU to say our’s is not correct, Burton?

    You simply can’t always say, “This is what this passage in the Bible means, and I don’t care if others disagree… so, therefore, I have determined that I’m right and you are a sinner, in error.” How arrogant. Yet you judge us for judging? You want to dogmatically say we can’t be dogmatic, eh Burton? Do you see your hypocrisy there?

    Where’s your tolerance and love toward us here who KNOW that Crowder and his ilk are not biblical? If everyone’s viewpoint is equally valid, and by your own view truth isn’t really knowable, you should have no problem with our view here.

    To slander and rip at people you’ve never met just because they adhere to differing perspectives on non-absolutes of scripture is just mean… and unnecessary. So why do YOU come against this site and the people here who know biblical doctrine and its unchanging Truth? You haven’t met anyone here, yet you question our humility and call us arrogant?

    Do some of these words sound familiar? They should. I used some of your own words Burton to show how wrong and hypocritical you truly are.

    Truth IS knowable and your conversation stopper of “that’s your opinion, which is fine” doesn’t alter it:

    Isa 45:19 I did not speak in secret, in a land of darkness; I did not say to the offspring of Jacob, ‘Seek me in vain.’ I the LORD speak the truth; I DECLARE WHAT IS RIGHT.

    Joh 8:31 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, “If you ABIDE IN MY WORD, you are truly my disciples, 32 and you WILL KNOW THE TRUTH , and the truth will set you free.”

    Joh 17:17 Sanctify them in the truth; YOUR WORD IS TRUTH.

    1Jo 2:21 I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but BECAUSE YOU KNOW IT, and because NO LIE IS OF THE TRUTH.

    1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, 2 through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared,

    Perhaps you will say its “only” God’s opinion?

  66. WB McC says:

    John, speaking of Scripture and its interpretation, I wonder how you deal with the following:

    1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober.
    1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
    1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
    1Ti 3:11 Even so [must their] wives [be] grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
    Tts 1:8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
    Tts 2:2 That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.
    Tts 2:4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
    Tts 2:6 Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded.
    1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
    1Pe 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
    1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

    IMO, it’s quiet clear that these verses do not merely forbid excess consumption of alcohol but speak of a mental/spiritual state of alertness that seems entirely inconsistent with the sort of behaviors and attitudes encouraged by Mr. Crowder and associates. The consistent biblical pattern of behavior for one in the presence of God (e.g., Moses, Isaiah) is not confusion or euphoria but recognition of one’s sinful state in contrast with the holiness of God.

  67. IWTT says:

    DavidT

    I am asking Chrystal (consider this post a request Chrystal) to send you my e-mail address so that we can communicate. I too am from Central Oregon a large Seeker-Sensitive Church and would love to talk to you via e-mail.

    If you feel comfortable about writing me I would appreciate it.

    Blessings
    Tim

  68. Bud Press says:

    John Burton:

    Remember me? I remember you. We had a discussion on your blog in 2008 concerning Stacey Campbell’s so called “prophecy” over Todd Bentley and her so called “apology,” where she tried her best to wiggle out of an obvious false prophecy.

    Since then, the hair stands up on the back of my neck when your name is mentioned. After reading your comments in this thread, the hair on the back of my neck is dancing a jig.

    Frankly, I am surprised that you would slither into this blog, knowing it is inhabited by a bunch of crazy “Pharisees” and “heresy hunters” and some who are “down right mean.” Perhaps you are here on a mission of mercy to rescue us poor souls from sound doctrine and proper Biblical interpretation.

    Your being here reminds me of the Apostle Paul’s inspired words in Galatians 2:4-5:

    “But it was because of the false brethren secretly brought in, who had sneaked in to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, in order to bring us into bondage. But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.”

    You come across as gentle and pastorial, then comment elsewhere that “some” of the “people” in this blog are “down right mean.”

    Since I saved our comments from 2008, I felt this would be a golden opportunity to share a few excerpts from the discussion for all to see.

    First, your comments, then mine.

    — “There are a lot of people out there who shout ‘false prophet’ from the rooftops at the slightest controversial remark. They are immature in their understanding of the prophetic, and that immaturity is doing a lot of damage in the church.”

    — “I do believe the Lakeland Outpouring is exposing the Pharisees… those who shout Bible verses like a scholar, but who attack people God loves. They arrogantly presume their biblical insight is superior to anothers.”

    — “There’s a huge difference between false prophecy and poor prophecy. False prophecy is demonic and is meant to mislead. Poor prophecy is due to our human weakness. We can fail.”

    — “Prophesy is a gift and it must be practiced and learned just like any other gift.”

    There is more, but now it’s my turn.

    During our discussion in 2008, I asked you to “please show me one Scripture in the Bible where God approved of a ‘poor prophecy,'” and, “Also, where in Scripture does it say or even imply that prophecy ‘must be practiced and learned just like any other gift[?]'” Then, I asked you the following questions:

    1. Specifically, what is a false prophecy?
    2. In light of Deuteronomy 18:21-22 and Matthew 24:24, when is someone considered a false prophet?

    You tried to wiggle around the questions and sidetrack the issues, but I kept asking. Then, within the same thread, you stated the following comments, which made my stomach woozy and my hair stand up on the back of my neck:

    “Basically, New Testament prophecy is not God’s very words, but rather it’s the report of something God reveals to the Christian. The ‘report’ is the fallible part as it’s transmitted via human words after human processing.”

    It appears our discussion has mysteriously disappeared from the internet. If it hasn’t, please provide the link(s) so everyone can read it in context.

    John Burton, it is obvious you haven’t changed, only worsened. You are still hyper-sensitive, self-serving, and self-righteous, and continue to play your “Jedi mind tricks,” so to say. So, stand back as I come out of the gate with my hair on fire–traveling at mach 2.

    Having read your writings and studied your methods of communication, I am not a bit surprised that you jumped into this blog with your “Now little children” attitude, your exclusive and elitist mentality, and your “honoring others” who differ garbage. And because of your self-appointed superior “anointing,” you expect everyone to fall at your feet and shout, “SHEEKA!” “BOOMBA!” “BAM!” and “I’ve seen the light!”

    Furthermore, you and your fellow wolves want Christians everywhere to actually believe that the God of the Bible is working through and blessing the efforts of John “Blasphemous Beatnik” Crowder, Benjamin Dunn, Brandon “Apostate Pirate” Barthrop, David Vaughn, and Patricia King–all of whom are hyper-heretical, blasphemous apostates!

    And, if anyone reading this doubts my words, please feel free to fry your eyeballs on “BLASPHEMY INCORPORATED: Terms and Catch-Phrases of the Ungodly” at http://christianresearchservice.com/Blasphemy_Incorporated.htm .

    In addition, to see the logical conclusion to turning against God, go to http://breakerclothing.com and scroll down to “The Apostolic Birdie” tee-shirt, which carries a depiction of “Jesus Christ” delivering a middle finger to all onlookers. This particular blasphemy is courteous of Brandon Barthrop’s website, which recommends Breaker Clothing.

    “Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived” (2 Timothy 3:12-13).

    John Burton, read this article at http://tinyurl.com/ydbnghk and let me know if you agree or disagree with Brandon Barthrop. Straightforward answers will be greatly appreciated.

    And you actually believe in a worldwide revival prior to Jesus’ return? HA! 2 Timothy chapter 3 and 2 Timothy chapter 4 says it “ain’t” going to happen. In fact, we “ain’t” seen nothing yet. It’s going to get worse.

    John Burton, you use the term “non-absolutes of scripture” to avoid dealing with the issues, and do your best to condition people into your cultic mindset. You probe and answer questions with questions. You use words such as “slander” and “rip at people” and “Pharisee” and “Saducee spirit” to try to intimidate and belittle God-fearing, discerning Christians.

    You play wiser than God, and attempt to smooth-over damnable blasphemy by terming it a “different view” and “differing interpretations.” You play subtle mind-games with your gullible followers, then try the same tactics on discerning Christians. You continue to dance around the issues and downplay the authority of God’s holy and inspired word.

    And YOU have the unmitigated gall to say, “How arrogant.”

    John Burton, I write this not necessarily for you, but for others who contribute to this blog, as well as the lurkers out there who may be caught-up in the so called “prophetic movement.” It is a movement which clearly teaches that there are no absolutes and no false prophets, just prophets who shout, “Whoops! I made a mistake, but I’m still a prophet of God!”

    THEN, when the heretics and false prophets are held accountable and exposed publicly for what they said and did publicly, they and their followers shout “Heresy hunter!” and “Stop attacking God’s anointed!” and “Stop judging!”

    HOGWASH! Double HOGWASH!!

    Here is a news flash for you, John Burton: One can’t be a false prophet, a false teacher, and a Christian at the same time. Take a serious look at 2 Peter 2:1:

    “But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves” (NASB).

    Did you notice the words, “even denying the Master who bought them”? That is exactly what false prophets and false teachers do. They DENY the real Jesus Christ! They DENY the authority of God’s written word! They DENY solid, Bible-based council and correction! Why? Because they think they have a corner-market on God, and consider themselves superior to us poor, widdy-bitty believers, of whom they think have lost their way.

    Don’t kid yourself, John Burton. Wake up! God has zero tolerance for false prophets and false teachers. There is no fellowship between God, false prophets, and false teachers (Jeremiah 23:31-32; Ezekiel 13:9; Matthew 7:21-23; 2 Peter 2:1). And God will deal with them severely at His appointed time (Matthew 7:21-23; Revelation 20:11-15).

    I have seen the damage false prophets and heretics cause to the spiritual, physical, and mental welfare of their followers. Some recover to serve the real Jesus of the Bible. Others go into seclusion–shipwrecked and feeling betrayed–nursing their pain and sadness, taking months or years to recover.

    Then, there are those whose hearts are filled with anger and hatred over anything that resembles “Christianity” They not only blame Christians and God, they actively campaign against God and the Bible, and cause others to stumble and mock God in the process. It is a vicious cycle and a whirlpool that leads to destruction.

    There are former Charismatics in this blog who have suffered the effects of the hyper-Charismatic movement. They have been shunned by family and friends, not because they turned their backs on Jesus Christ, but because they knew something was wrong and had the courage to stand strong for Jesus Christ and the truth of His word. One minute they were “loved” and smiled upon, the next minute they were written off as apostates.

    The treatment they encountered from their family, friends, and pastors is identical to what a Mormon and Jehovah’s Witness experience when they realize they have been hoodwinked and deceived. Why? Because Satan overshadows, oppresses, and even possesses those in the cults. He does the same with heretics and false prophets (2 Peter 2:1-3; Galatians 1:6-9; 2 Corinthians chapter 11; John 8:44).

    One cannot be controlled by the angel of light and be the light of the world at the same time (2 Corinthians 11:13-14; Matthew 5:14-16).

    John Burton, I am glad you took the time to post in Slaughter of the Sheep, because you have provided an open window into the mindset of a wannabe prophet and a bona fide false teacher. You have given the readers a prime example of how blind and deceptive the pathetic “prophetic movement” is.
    You have demonstrated what happens when someone worships a false “Jesus,” preaches a false gospel, and is led by a false spirit.

    It is the same mindset found within the cults, where it doesn’t matter what the false prophets say or do, because they are ruled by their feelings, emotions, and “supernatural experiences.” This they do instead of studying and trusting in God’s written word. Heretics and false prophets carefully condition their followers to accept virtually anything that spews from their mouths.

    Incredibly and unfortunately, there are those who believe you and your fellow heretics over and above God’s written word. You claim to have a direct pipeline to God, but you wouldn’t know proper Biblical interpretation if it kicked you in the seat of your pants!

    I pray that you will wake up and smell the stench of the movement you are involved in, and run to the nearest exit. But to do that, you must repent of your sins and be willing to lose everything for the real Jesus Christ. For to lose everything for Christ is to lose nothing and gain everything.

    In the meantime, I pray that God will be merciful and draw your followers away from you and the savage wolves you associate with (Acts 20:27-31; Ephesians 5:11-12; Matthew 15:8-9).

    Finally, should you choose to reply to this post, keep in mind that I have grown a thick skin over the years, and wear insults and persecution as a Badge of Honor for Jesus Christ (Isaiah 41:10; Psalm 27:1; Ephesians 6:10-20).

    May God have mercy on your wretched soul.

    “And have mercy on some, who are doubting; save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh” (Jude 2:22-23).

    “ALL SCRIPTURE is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work” (2 Timothy 3:16-17, emp. added).

    “For the WORD OF GOD is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart” (Hebrews 4:12, emp. added).

    Bud Press

  69. shane says:

    @Bud

    Now that is a reply. That needs to be said to more of these so called “prophets”.

  70. PuritanReformer says:

    @ Bud Press
    Excellent!
    I was reading through this guy’s pompous drivel earlier today and you just nailed it on the head and hit the ball out of the park sir! Nothing else really needs to be said.
    Thank you.

  71. unworthy1 says:

    Bud Press,
    Praise God for your biblical rebuke of this heretic John Burton who defends what God hates. You have absolutely nailed his heresy on the head with a rebuke that prayerfully will send him reeling, and to his knees in search of the real Jesus.
    Blessings to you,
    Lyn

  72. truthinator says:

    Peter was as zealous as they came. He was in the moddle of everything that was happening in the early church. Where is the account (from the Bible) of him hosting a Sloshfest or staggering around going, “Oy oing yoing” ? Huh? Donde esta?

    No esta because it ain’t there. John burton, please do not take this the wrong way but you are a fool if you think you can defend the garbage coming from Crowder and his stoned hippie friends. Wise up and repent (with God’s grace). I am praying for you.
    T.

  73. Mr PSb says:

    @ Bud Press – I couldn’t have said it any better. If this were a game of cricket – you just hit John Burton for six.

  74. Robert says:

    @ Bud

    Ayup, I’ll drink to that……er…….possibly a bad choice of words. Well done !

  75. jude newman says:

    Yea Bud
    couldn’t have said it better myself. I went onto John’s site. I never knew flagging could release the “breaker anointing” Where is that in the Bible. Also their meeting was like a revival circus. I do get very grieved over people like this. I want to say John I am offended over what you teach. I am offended over your words to all on these comments. I am offended that you teach and endorse these views of my Heavenly Father and spread and believe such blasphemy about Him. It is no small thing that you are leading others astray with your blasphemous teachings. If this truly was the character of God I would rather burn in hell for eternity than follow him.

  76. Mr PSb says:

    @ Chrystal – Lol, hitting six in a game of Cricket, is something like hitting a Home Run in Baseball. And Bud gave it quite a whack!

  77. Denise says:

    Bud,

    Yes, Burton was so easy to spot because his hypocrisy and arrogance was shinging brightly. Hence, my use of his own words against himself. ; )

    You certainly nailed him and his mentality to the pole, leaving him furthur exposed for what he truly is.

    This liberal nonsense about ” agreeing to disagree” is not biblical when it comes to doctrine. Biblical doctrine is never optional. As we grow in Christ, we see where we are wrong, by the Spirit using Scripture in our lives, and then we conform to the Word, if you see what I mean. But this has reminded me of a blogger, S. J. Walker who said:

    Quote [caps for my emphasis only]:

    “If a man is one who, for any reason at all, rejects the Law,and Gospel of Grace through Christ, I would rather he do his worst to me for my adherence to it. Let him who will not surrender to God Almighty do his level best to destroy my reputation, to make me appear the fool, and if time and circumstance allow, let him even seek my life. BUT I WILL NOT HAVE A MAN WHO REFUSES TO SURRENDER TO GOD IN FATIH, ATTEMPT TO TELL ME THAT HE ” DISAGREES BUT RESPECTS MY OPINION”, FOR SUCH A MAN IS A SMILING LIAR. IT IS NOT RESPECT! NOT RESPECT BUT COWARDICE.. Respect of this opinion would render this man broken. He is a man who cannot find the nerve to kill me or harm my reputation, so he claims a peaceful respect.

    I would rather, above all else, to see that man saved! But if not saved, I would prefer to see him honest for once at his death.

    THERE WOULD BE NO GREATER FAILURE OF MINE THAN TO “AGREE TO DISAGREE” WHILE THE VERY GATE OF HELL CLOSES BETWEEN A POOR LOST SINNER AND MYSELF–a sinner too, but saved by Grace.”

    End quote. http://www.alionhasroared.com/2008/08/8-24-08-thought-for-week.html

  78. Hannah says:

    Good reply Bud! Something I realized recently is that the true Pharisees are those who are protecting their sacred cows i.e. their man made traditions, doctrines of men and demons. Yeshua was always fighting against their man made religion by bringing the True Word of God. So in reality those people who are defending their heretical doctrines and practices and call us Pharisees, are the true Pharisees. They do not endure sound doctrine, they have the ‘religious spirit’.

  79. David says:

    @John Burton – Please don’t cop out. If you stand for this kind of thing, just come right out and say so. Be honest with yourself, and with the rest of us. But please don’t hide behind an accusation of “holier-than-thou” syndrome just because you don’t like the fact that this stuff is being called out as blasphemy.

    Let me just say that although you may see this as a grey area, the rest of the discerning, Bible believing body of Christ, recognizes this kind of behavior as not even close to glorifying the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

    That’s not an opinion. That’s a fact. And the reason I know it’s fact is because I know the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He has revealed Himself through SCRIPTURE in order to enable all of us to know how to worship Him; so we can know His character; so we can know what He considers holy behavior.

  80. David says:

    Whoops! I had only read the first post and then HAD to comment. I failed to read the ensuing battle, and the Bud Press comment.

    Either way, my heart sinks when I hear lies like the ones Bishop speaks.

  81. seeker3k says:

    Revival for false christs

    John Crowder and John Burton are being publicly rebuked, however there is a multitude of “wolves in training” out there, who are emerging to promote revival for false christs.

    The increasing abominations in their ministries are often preceded by the announcement:

    “God is doing a new thing”
    “God is doing a super new thing”
    “God is doing a tremendously super new thing”

    etc.

    Critique against tremendously super new abominations must continue relentlessly as an indirect affirmation of the truth, to fulfil God’s command to be discerning and expose fraud.

    2 Tim 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.

    Eph 5:8-11 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) and find out what pleases the Lord. Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.

    The consequence of exposing error is to give observers confidence to flee false teachings and improper ministries, which are really just old sorcery through a new medium.

    Medium, as in people who do spirit channelling and necromancy – see Deuteronomy 18:10-11.
    Medium, as in using technology, such as internet, to project spirit channelling sessions in bulk (eg. people watching video of sorcery teachers).

    A significant leader in the emerging antichrist movement is Rick Joyner. See >Rick Joyner unmasked.
    He should be given persistent refuting, to encourage the church (the collection of authentic Christians wherever they are) to cease accommodating >his sorcery.

  82. Bud Press says:

    Dear Brothers and Sisters:

    I appreciate your kindness and concern, and praise the Lord that I am a part of the Slaughter of the Sheep family. Your love of our Lord and defense of the the faith is a blessing to me and others who frequent this blog.

    Indeed, I am thankful for your courage and boldness in Christ, and ability to discern truth from error.

    Some day we will be together with Jesus, and what a glorious day that will be. In the meantime, I pray that the Lord will richly bless you, give you peace, and strengthen you for the days to come.

    Bud Press
    Jude 3

  83. Eli says:

    Amen Bud…..amen brother! the only response I could think of after reading that is “NUFF SAID”!

  84. Bull says:

    wow … just come onto this thread and it has taken some time to get through it all. I have probably missed something and if so, sorry.

    I want to come back to this apologetic from John Burton:

    1) Paul’s dramatic encounter on the road to Damascus
    2) John, Mary and many others who had angelic encounters
    3) Paul going to the third heaven
    4) Acts 2 was a very unusual supernatural event

    1) Paul did not bark like a dog or make animal noises or wander around drunk in the Spirit as a result of his encounter with the Risen Lord Jesus. He was struck blind. (no laughing matter).

    3) Paul was not allowed to talk about this or what he experienced. Very interesting unusual event … not repeated by others in scripture.

    4) Acts 2 does not suggest that the outpouring of the Holy Spirit led to absolute bedlam. Rather, they were accused of being drunk because the believers were speaking other (understandable) languages and praising Jesus and testifying to his death and resurrection. 3000 people were saved. Please Note, 3000 people were not “saved” at sloshfest. It was more of a rally for those who are already devotees of Crowder and Dunn. David Vaughn was not “out of pocket” either … I wonder how much lucre was raised by the event and how much of a love gift was handed out.

    Now we come to number 2).

    True, Mary and Joseph and the Shepherds were visited by Angels who were acting as messengers of God. But Jesus hadn’t been born yet. God used Angels all through the pre-incarnate period.

    Subsequent to Jesus Ministry, and the Crucifixion and Resurrection and Ascension there is no trace of Angelic visitations … until we get to the Revelation. What was going on there? Well Jesus was in the Vision, angels were in the Vision. When Jesus was doing something in the vision, the Angels are speaking to John, and He does a lot. But it starts off with Him dictating letters to 7 churches in Asia Minor.

    The pattern of Angelic Visitation in the New Testament era is radically different. Hebrews shows us that we don’t need Angels to tell us things now. We have a direct line to the Father through Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

    Jesus is better than the prophets, better than the Angels. Now we have the Son, why do we need an inferior method of communication?
    ========================================
    Well now, let’s look at how other groups have received ‘supernatural’ communication.

    Mohammed claimed to have encountered an Angel that gave him new teaching … Islam is growing faster than Christianity and no one could say they aren’t materially blessed. However, Biblical Christians would say that it is an Anti-Christian faith. They deny the Crucifixion and the Resurrection and that Jesus is God the Son.

    Joseph Smith claimed extra-biblical revelation from the Arch-Angel Moroni. The Church of the Latter-Day saints deny the truth of the Bible with their very different understanding … however, Joel Osteen (pastor of America’s largest Mega-Church(43,500 weekend attendance)) can’t tell the difference between a Mormon and a Christian.

    Todd Bentley has had visitations from an Angel identified as Emma. This Emma also introduces extra-biblical revelation. It encourages Todd to draw attention to itself. (slight paraphrase) “They need to believe in me so they will believe in the supernatural”.

    So belief in Jesus is not sufficient.

    Paul rightly condemns those who preach a different Jesus. Preaching the real Jesus, even with bad motives, is great. But bringing a different Jesus keeps people hell-bound.

    John Burton:The minute we throw out “decently and in order” we are sunk. The very fact that Paul has to address this indicates that there was absolute bedlam in the first churches and he had to stop all the rubbish that was happening. Where these sorts of events happen, where is the reverence? Where is the awe?

    Nowhere.

    In the end people say “don’t throw the Baby out with the bathwater” … but there is no baby to be found … just filthy water.

    John Burton …. search yourself. You know what I am saying is true. Choose now whom you will serve, as for me and my house, I will serve the Lord.

    Shalom.

  85. Denise says:

    I HIGHLY recommend “The Jesus You Can’t Ignore: What You Must Learn From the Bold Confrontations of Christ” by John MacArthur.

    To read some pages go here: http://books.google.com/books?id=VON8VHWtsl4C&printsec=frontcover&dq=The+Jesus+You+can't+ignore&source=bl&ots=nMW4ka-vu-&sig=hl9b8nAiMzJdCyVv5NdhSp3lF9Q&hl=en&ei=ljd8S8KKDY–sgPyq8nLCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CCQQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=&f=false

    Quote:

    1Th 5:21 “but test everything; hold fast what is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil.”

    John7:24 “Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.”
    We are also called to be soldiers for the cause of truth. The spiritual conflict between the forces
    of darkness and the truth of God is, after all, WAR.

    That means, among other things, we have some fighting to do. As we have seen throughout this
    book, the popular notion that conflicts is always to be avoided is simply wrong. There are times
    when we MUST be confrontive rather than collegial. Tit 1:10 “For there are many who are
    insubordinate, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision party. 11 They
    must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for shameful gain what
    they ought not to teach. “

    If you wince at that or think there’s no way such an aggressive attitude could possibly be a sanctified response to doctrinal error in a postmodern culture, you need to review and rethink what the entire NT says about false teachers and how Christians should respond to them—especially from Jesus’ point of view.

    In His final recorded messages to the church, given to the apostle John in a vision of several decades after Christ’s ascension into heaven, we see that the silencing of false teachers was still one of our Lord’s primary concerns, even from His throne in heaven. He addressed seven churches….Only two of the churches, Smyrna and Philadelphia, were commended for their faithfulness without any qualification or hint of rebuke. Both of them had remained true to Christ despite the influence of “those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan”(Rev. 2:9). All five other churches received various measures of rebuke, based on how corrupt, unfaithful, or spiritually lethargic they were.

    A prominent theme in practically all Jesus’ messages to those seven churches is the issue of how they responded to false teachers and rank heretics in their midst.

    It is clear from those letters to the churches in Revelation that battling heresy is a duty Christ expects every Christian to be devoted to. Whether we like it or not, our very existence in this world involves spiritual warfare—it is not a party or a picnic. If Christ Himself devoted so much of His time and energy during His earthly ministry to the task of confronting and refuting false teachers, surely that must be high on our agenda as well. His style of ministry ought to be the model for ours, and His zeal against false religion ought to fill our hearts and minds as well.

    End quote.

  86. beyondgrace says:

    David Vaughn is in Fort Mills, SC tonight (Heritage). Let’s hope Todd Bentley does not wander in for some “Enoch-Elation.”

    http://www.emergewales.com/Latest_News_O2IA.html

  87. Peter Vandever says:

    I read some of your thoughts BUT I think you need to read your bible yourself!

    1 Cor 4 tells us if we do not have a signs and wonders ministry, to sit down and shut out mouths until we do! Not saying this about you but people in general!

    Now, with that said, Crowder is off the deep end with 90% of his stuff! lol

  88. seeker3k says:

    >> Peter Vandever 23/2/10 “1 Cor 4 tells us if we do not have a signs and wonders ministry, to sit down and shut our mouths until we do!”

    Peter Vandever, 1 Corinthians 4 does not say that, you have misrepresented scripture with a statement that effectively blocks discernment (“you must shut up until you can do miracles on demand”).

    You have put yourself directly with the group of people who Jesus Christ accused “a wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign” (Matt 12:32).

    Peter Vandever, would you consider yourself wicked and adulterous?

    If not, then stop asking for miraculous signs.

    There are 2 types of signs and wonders ministry:

    1. Counterfeit signs and wonders done in the name of a false Christ, eg. the paranormal acts of John Crowder, Benny Hinn, Rick Joyner.
    These people should be named, because their miracles glorify themselves for the purpose of inciting people to submit and follow their false teachings.

    2. True signs and wonders done in the name of the true Jesus Christ. These glorify Jesus Christ, so it is not necessary to name the people who operate in them.
    They are only messengers who glorify God and affirm scripture as the counsel to follow.

    False prophecy is a counterfeit sign.

    Miracles done in the name of the true Jesus Christ will be accompanied with sound doctrine.

    Always check the doctrine first before you look at the signs and wonders, or you will be seduced by the works of a false spirit.

    Charismania (false signs and wonders – eg. Toronto “Blessing”) operating in churches are the works of false spirits that glorify false christs.

    For example, any sign or wonder coming out of the Roman Catholic church will be false, because that denomination exists to promote the authority of men claiming to be apostles (eg. the Pope), then asserting that authority is greater than the authority of scripture interpreted directly by individuals.

    This is their method to force people to follow false teaching.

    That is the same method that John Crowder, Benny Hinn, Rick Joyner and other apostates use.
    It is shown by the way they respond to people who refute their teachings and practices.
    For example, >Benny Hinn invokes curses on anyone who opposes him.

    Jesus Christ put Bible doctrine first when the devil approached him with suggestions for “signs and wonders”.

    He just refuted the attempts with “it is written”, thereby asserting doctrine before miracles (see >Matthew 4:1-10)

    Doctrine is foremost because truth is foremost.

    Signs and wonders do not determine truth.

    Peter Vandever, you are pressuring the church to produce signs and wonders, so in that respect you are being an advocate of the devil to try and incite improper actions.

    On that particular aspect of your reply, I suggest your own words: “sit down and shut up”.

    To your statement “Crowder is off the deep end with 90% of his stuff”, I agree.

    “Off the deep end” is actually a hint towards a warning that applies directly to John Crowder and anyone else who practice similar ways:

    Luke 17:1-2 Jesus said to his disciples: “Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come. It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin”.

    John Crowder promotes a spiritual experience called “heavy, weighty, drunken glory” which may be a self prophecy of having the weight of a millstone around his neck.
    He is inciting thousands to sin by promoting blasphemy and mockery of God, Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, the Holy Bible, and the Church.

    “Off the deep end” with a heavy, weighty millstone around his neck.

    He should repent, but he may be unable to if he has been handed over to a strong delusion by God for persistently resisting the truth:

    2 Thes 2:9-12 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

    If it is impossible for John Crowder to repent of his folly, then at least every other Christian should heed the warning to stay away from him and stop condoning him.

    If they don’t they are showing they don’t >fear the Lord, and that always leads to disaster.

  89. Peter says:

    I am not saying that we seek miracles, however; miracles follow that who believe. “and these signs will accompany those who believe….” A miracle ministry was the norm in the New Testament. They didnt seek to have miracles; they just was a sign from heaven to back up the Word!

    As far as Crowder, as a student of the Word as well as a firm believer in miracles; I find that most of this “glory stuff” is off the wall. What concerns me the most is the doctrinal beliefs of Crowder and company. There are certain things I hold to be true that Crowder and others do not. Another in the group I get very concerned about is David Herzog.

  90. Peter says:

    I just wanted to say one thing I love about evangelicals is they seek to love the Lord with all their minds. One thing I love about Charsmatics is they seek to love the Lord with all their emotions. I love both things equally!

  91. W B Mc says:

    Peter, do you mean to imply that you think it is God’s will than we be ruled equally by our minds and emotions? I apologize if I seem to be putting words in your mouth. I’m merely seeking clarity. :-)

  92. seeker3k says:

    >> Peter 24/2/10 8:10am “miracles follow that who believe. “and these signs will accompany those who believe….”

    Miracles come from God, so it doesn’t matter whether those who believe have miracles following them, unless God intends it in specific situations.

    God has his own agenda.
    He is not looking for “miracles”, he is looking for authentic belief.

    “A wicked and adulterous generation” looks for miracles (Matt 12:39).

    There is not a lot of authentic belief going on in churches these days, there is just a lot of misbehaviour in following false Christs and false signs and wonders.

    An authentic Christian who follows God faithfully through difficult situations is the kind of miracle that attracts unbelievers.

    To do miracles like instantly heal people and utter prophecies is not necessarily what is needed to attract unbelievers, as it just encourages them to follow a false God who is a servant to their ambitions for wealth and health. It sets them up to follow a false Christ “MammonJesus”.

    The so called “Charismatic anointing” that some church people claim to have (eg. all the perverted acts of John Crowder) usually turn out to be either hypnotism, mental illness delusion, or sorcery from familiar spirits (demons dressed up to “look like Jesus”).

    >> Peter 24/2/10 10:40am “evangelicals …… seek to love the Lord with all their minds”
    >> “Charismatics …… seek to love the Lord with all their emotions”

    Labels “Evangelical” and “Charismatic” are little use, as everyone may have differing interpretation of what those labels mean.
    However Peter 24/2/10 10:40am has associated particular ideas with those labels:

    1. “Love the Lord with all their minds
    2. “Love the Lord with all their emotions

    Being a Christian starts with the mind, as otherwise you will be deceived to follow a false God.

    Truth comes before love, as love first needs a true, Biblical definition for it to be valid.

    The pursuit of truth is an intellectual activity.

    “Love” is a spurious concept, as there are so many perverted definitions of it floating about, eg. the “worldly” pursuit of peace, love, and smoke dope – “I love you baby”.

    The concept of “Love the Lord with all their emotions” is usually people following a different Lord, a false Christ, because “loving with emotions” is only “feeling good about something”.

    “Loving with emotions” is the same as what people who take drugs or visit prostitutes do.

    They have ignored the moral constraints their minds could give, and just indulged for indulgence sake.

    They tickle their senses with flesh sensations and call it “love”.

    People who ignore their minds and pursue emotional high will go in to deception and follow a misrepresentation of God.

    This is the basis of contemplative spirituality and mysticism that is flooding into the church.

    “The Message” Bible translation by Eugene Peterson is perverted with these ideas.

    The people who use their minds to know the true God through being careful about Bible doctrine will find truth, because God has promised genuine truth seekers will be rewarded.

    Their emotions are a consequence of knowing the true God.

    They have contentment from being in truth.

    Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

    People who emotionally indulge themselves, then call that “loving God” are just deceiving themselves.

    Romans 12:2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is–his good, pleasing and perfect will.

    “Emotion lovers” may be nothing more than spiritual perverts (eg. participators in sensations like Toronto “Blessing”) and will be disqualified for following deception.
    They should repent of indulging themselves with a false Christ.

    Maybe you will disagree with this Peter.
    My stance comes from seeing emotional pursuits always going into nutty behaviour and false teaching because they follow whatever makes them feel good.

    John Crowder’s simulation acts of drunk/drugged/sex euphoria/mentally ill are the consequence of following whatever makes him feel good.

    The Bible warns against this:

    Romans 13:11-14 And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light. Let us walk properly, as in the day, not in revelry and drunkenness, not in lewdness and lust, not in strife and envy. But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts.

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