Abortion Doctor Killed In Church

A Wichita abortion doctor, who was one of a few who performed late-term abortions, was killed while in church where he served as usher.  There is something seriously wrong with this picture. 

First, abortion is murder…period.  Late term abortion is unconscionable.  Yet, this man served as usher in his church.  It makes me wonder about the spiritual health of his pastor and fellow congregants.  He wasn’t a pew warmer, he was an active participant in the church services.  According to news sources, this wasn’t the first time Dr. Tiller was attacked.  While I am sorry that his wife and family are hurting, I also grieve at the lives lost at the hands of this doctor.  Innocent children have been slaughtered by this man’s hand.

Secondly, I wonder how long it will be before Christians are given the blame for this man’s death.  If not Christians directly, then in a second-hand way.  Acts like this slowly chip away at the reputations of faithful Christians, making us seem like right wing zealots who murder those with which we disagree.   While you and I know that is ridiculous, there are some who will more than likely blame our beliefs for emboldening the type of person who could carry out an attack such as this.  It’s not Christian…it wasn’t a Christian who did it… and it’s not right.

“Stolz said all indications were that the man acted alone, although authorities were investigating whether he had any connection to anti-abortion groups.”  (Online Source)

Operation Rescue has already renounced the attack.

“We are shocked at this morning’s disturbing news that Mr. Tiller was gunned down. Operation Rescue has worked for years through peaceful, legal means, and through the proper channels to see him brought to justice. We denounce vigilantism and the cowardly act that took place this morning. We pray for Mr. Tiller’s family that they will find comfort and healing that can only be found in Jesus Christ.”  (Online Source)

Times are dark…stay alert.

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25 Responses to Abortion Doctor Killed In Church

  1. wearymom says:

    Some will “likely blame our beliefs for emboldening the type of person who could carry out an attack such as this.”

    That is exactly what will happen. Our beliefs are becoming less and less tolerable to the world. Even if the person who did this terrible deed has absolutely no association with Christians at all, it will be blamed on our ‘exteme’ belief that life begins at conception. Many will feel that, just by voicing our beliefs in defense of the unborn, we cause things like this to happen. More and more in the days ahead, we will be seen as extreme, as fanatics who need to be reigned in.

    • Chrystal says:

      wearymom,

      We may be seen as extreme fanatics in the days ahead, and it may get harder for us to be Christians in this country, but I am thankful that we can find comfort in one another in these troubled times, and especially in God and His Word.

  2. HOPEANDCHANGE says:

    I DON’T AGREE WITH THE MURDER OF GEORGE TILLER. HOWEVER, LET ME BE CLEAR I HAD NO RESPECT FOR THE MAN. I JUST LOVE HOW FAMILY AND FRIENDS OF TILLER SAY HOW HORRIBLE IT IS THAT TILLER WAS MURDERED IN A HOUSE OF WORSHIP; YOU KNOW A PLACE HE WAS SUPPOSED TO FEEL SAFE. YET, IF THEY WERE TO THINK ABOUT IT THEY WOULD REALIZE THAT A MOTHER’S WOMB SHOULD BE THE SAFEST PLACE FOR THE UNBORN. HOW MANY BABIES DID HE YANK OUT OF THEIR PEACEFUL AND RESTFUL HOMES. I ALSO WOULD CONTEND THAT LUTHERAN CHURCHES ARE USUALLY MORE LEFTIST THINK TANKS THAN HOUSES OF WORSHIP. CHOIRS AND HYMNS A HOUSE OF WORSHIP DOES NOT MAKE. JESUS SAID WE MUST WORSHIP IN SPIRIT AND TRUTH. I WOULD WAGER THAT A CHURCH THAT WELCOMES AN ABORTION PROVIDER AND CALLS HIM A “GOOD CHRISTIAN MAN” IS LACKING IN BOTH.

    “YES WE CAN” – BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA

    “I WISH YOU WOULDN’T” – MATTHEW A SPURGIN

  3. darklight says:

    A very interesting and disturbing article for a number of reasons.

    I am sure that when the investigations are completed, there will be a link to some right wing chrisitan fueled movement.

    Firstly I do agree that abortion is not the answer and it is a another case of man “playing God”; however, we have to understand that we are supposed to have a “freedom of choice” whether it is for good or evil, it is supposed to be our right as human beings. There is a growing faction in the so called church who want to take that away from us. I dread to think what would happen if such people were to rule the world.

    Secondly, I was under the impression that in “God’s eyes”, sin was sin, so I was quite surprised to note that the first thing that was pointed out was that this man was “serving” in the church and not the fact that his life was taken. I know for a fact there were people (myself) included who served in the church and also “sinned”. Christians are getting into the trap of categorising certain “sins” (i.e. abortion, homosexuality) and everything else is “acceptable”.

    This man made a choice to do what he did, right or wrong, he made that choice and paid a price for that choice, the same as those women who do make the decision to go through with it (they have their reasons) and no one knows the reasons for it, but still the church sits on its high and mighty judgement seat and tells them so.

    My heart goes out to the family of Mr Tiller. Right or worng, that was not the answer.

    Has anyone thought that this man knew that he was doing wrong and by working in the church he was just trying to “give something back” despite the abuse and attacks that he had suffered? Being an usher is basically someone who looks after the movement of people in and out of the church, he was up there preaching or teaching. They are rarely noticed and rarely apriciated. He was not ordianed a deacon.

    Finally when it comes to murder, I think that history proves (and in some cases still does) that the church has a lot of blood on her hands (the inqusition, the crusades, the witch hunts) and now the violence and mental abuse continues in the form of children being brainwashed into becoming “soldiers for Christ” and hidden domestic violence in Christian homes (don’t take issue with me on this, I had to counsel many about this, it is an epidemic in the church).

    In the church you have the good, the bad and the ugly. There are some really genuine people who want to do the right thing and lay their lives down for others the way that Jesus told them to, but I am afraid to say that most of them, that is leaders and myself included are egotisical, selfish, corrupt, lying, greedy and dangerous people.

    God help us all…!

    • Chrystal says:

      Actually, he knew what he was doing, and he didn’t think there was anything wrong with it. So, I doubt seriously that this man was in church to assuage his guilt over killing the unborn.

      This man’s church should be suspect. He didn’t do abortions in a back alley, he was known far and wide. He did late-term abortions. The people in his congregation knew it, and still allowed him to serve as usher. They are lamenting his death (which is understandable, since they personally knew him), yet they hadn’t the spiritual discernment to weep for the babes he was butchering. Would you attend a church where Dr. Tiller was an active and participating member, who defiantly stood against God and His Word, and yet went without rebuke? Obviously, this church wasn’t teaching the narrow way, otherwise he would not have been comfortable there.

      With all of that said, taking this man’s life was cowardly, barbaric, and wrong.

  4. wearymom says:

    Yep, we were right. From a news report this morning:

    “One of the few remaining late-term abortion clinics is in Boulder, Colo., where Dr. Warren Hern denounced Tiller’s killing as the “inevitable and predictable consequence of decades of anti-abortion” rhetoric and violence.

    “Dr. Tiller’s assassination is not the lone and inexplicable action of one deranged killer,” Hern said Sunday. “This was a political assassination in a historic pattern of anti-abortion political violence. It was terrorism.”

    Things are heating up for us as Christians.

  5. I’m upset that a person who God saw fit to bless with life was forcibly removed from that life. However, how many lives did he take? What did he do it for? A paycheck. He took an oath to do no harm and then spent his final time on earth breaking that vow.

    What separates this man from Hitler, Stalin or Mao? Nothing. All are mass murderers.

    Yes, some fool thought that killing him was the answer. Murder is not the answer. Let me pose this question.

    You’re walking down the block and you see a man attacking a pregnant woman with a knife. How do you respond? Do you respond suddenly, even violently to protect those two lives? Is the protection of the unborn any different?

    Again, not advocating murder. Also not advocating the hand wringing either.

    Fact: Jesus said the world would hate us. I mean, He raised people from the dead, healed many, and they STILL killed him. How much more will they do to us?

    Fact: We have already won. Doesn’t mean we should stop working, but I personally have a lack of worry about my life. Matthew 6:25 is a verse I try to live by. No worries.

    It will be harder for us to be Christians. What is coming next is the financial persecution of churches. We’ll see separation of the wheat from the chaff when the tax exempt status of churches is threatened for preaching “politically incorrect hate speech”. Then it will get interesting.

  6. Carol says:

    Most of the readers are missing the point of this. This man was known for being an abortionist. Still, he was allowed to serve in his “church” knowing what he did for a living. Will nobody take the responsibility to point out that his occupation is sin against GOD? Will nobody in his so called church point out that abortion is murder?

    This is the issue here, the church allowed him to serve, knowing that his occupation is ending the lives of innocent unborn babies! That is sin. Working as an abortionist. And then trying to say he’s a “Christian” by being in church makes me really ill. It’s bad enough men and women choose to be abortionists, but when they cloak themselves under the guise of being “Christian” that it’s acceptable for him/her to continue to work as a baby killer as long as he confesses his/her sins to God?

    Is this madness? We all have choices, but this man should not profess to be a Christian, and continue to kill babies. And I have to question the church that allows baby killers, and that’s exactly what abortionists do, to serve in their church. I don’t even care if they would have only allowed him to scrub their toilets, they knowingly allow an abortionist to serve in the church. I’m sure this “dr” and I use the term loosely because (I always thought of a “doctor” as someone who saves lives, not ends them) puts a great amount of that blood money into the church offering plate. That’s wrong!

    He had no place inside the church as long as he chose to make a living killing babies. That’s just the way I see it. THere’s no buttering the words to make it more “palatable”. Wrong is wrong.

    It doesn’t say much about the “church” that allows an abortionist to serve in their church. “Church” is for true saints to worship God, not for allowing abortionists to feel good about themselves trying to appease any sort of “guilt” trip he may have for the lives he takes each day. How can any true man of God, bought with the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ continue to work as an abortionist???

    God can take one of those out of sin, but they have to be OUT of the practice and never return to it.

    • Chrystal says:

      Also, to add to what Carol was saying, I heard last night that he performed over 60,000 late-term abortions. These were LATE TERM abortions… and his church knew it. That says a lot.

  7. wearymom says:

    That church is totally apostate…not a congregation of true believers at all. They are goats not true sheep of Christ’s fold…they follow after another Christ, a different gospel, have created a god in their own image that suits them… otherwise they could never have tolerated having this man in their midst. This is the kind of church that will condone, even advance, the persecution of true Christians which is coming.

  8. darklight says:

    Wow…this article has really got everyone going! This is good!! People airing their views as they rightfully should. It has confirmed to me what I have suspected for some time, that this belief system called Christianity is in many parts starting to self-implode. Hopefully what is left at the end of it is the true church. Real people who love their God and love one another as they love themselves. It is as simple as that.

    The word that instantly springs to mind is “intollerance”.

    You may care to note that Christianity, Judeaism and Islam have a lot in common. The main common grounds are:

    1. They all have the same origin (and you would have a real shock if you really studied that one).
    2. They do not tollerate any other belief system at all. Their God is God and all others are evil.
    3. They collectively have been responsible for an awful lot of deaths in the name their God.
    4. They are all intent on world domination. (and yes that does include the Jewish state, they would not stop at the middle east if they occupied it).

    Going back to Christianity, i have spent long hours upon hours studying it’s origin and have found a lot of interesting things that a lot of Christians are not aware of and would not be encouraged to study about the origins of their religion. In fact if they realised it’s origin, a large number of churches would close down and millions in revenue to these fat, greedy, televangelists lost and sick and twisted roman catholic church would go bust too. What is also amusing is how evangelical Christians are quick to shout out again, paganism and new age beliefs. Again, if they studdied the history of their religion, its origins are steeped in paganism. A lot of your symbols are pagan, so get over it and move on and focus our jibes and energy against the real enemy of your souls.

    On the subject of money, I wish to just comment on Yemi’s comment on “financial persecution” of the church…that is not the case. It is a case that the goverment has got tired of the fact that these mega churches and their greedy preachers have been getting away with making millions out of fleecing the sheep and becasue of that, decent, honest and well meaning church organistions will suffer. The many suffer for the few I am afraid.

    Finally, please don’t think that Christian’s are the only people who are suffering “persecution” from the world system. They are trying to kill us ALL.

    Wake up!!!

    Many are going to disagree with me. My old church buddies think that I am wrong and don’t give me the time of day anymore. It’s a shame but what is more of a shame is that no-one is prepared to listen to something that might just spark off a “free thought”… a moment where you can think for yourself.

    I am not anti-Christian, but I am anti intollerance and I am anti any beleif system that stops you from thinking for yourself and binds you with rules. I have great memories of my times in the church and some of the inspiring people I met there. So please don’t think that.

    Love, peace and respect to you all :-)

  9. HOPEANDCHANGE says:

    let me guess darklight any one who doesn’t think like you is someone who can’t think for himself. However, you my friend you are an elite intellect one of few on the planet who can muster original thought (sarc/off). Why would you say that christians are not capable of original thought, because they share beliefs with one another. I know several people who agree with you on several points, thus that means you need to start thinking for yourself too. I bet if we were to develop your mind set then wow miracle of miracles we would become free independent thinkers. Just because someone doesn’t think like you doesn’t mean that they are not free thinkers. It is funny how people who go around preaching free thought want to limit certain types of thought. Also your justification of abortion is ignorant. You talk about how we have freedom of choice in America. Our founding fathers claimed that if freedom were to be truly enjoyed it would need to be limited. People shouldn’t be allowed to do anything just because it is a personal choice. If someone wanted to harm you and your family, should that be legal? Remember it is their personal choice thus you can’t tell them not to do it. You must respect their choice to your own detrement. I too have studied Church History and acknowledge many of your points and I too wish for the downfall of the televangelists. Yet at the same time I understand that Christianity was going to change and adapt after its origin. The origins of indoor plumbing were outhouses, does that mean I have to start going outside to use the restroom. After all things must stay the same. Are you aware that our wasteful public schools were much different 100 years ago. Does that mean that our public schools need to go back to that way. You say that Christianity has historically been responsible for millions of deaths. Please look beneath the surface instead of regurtitating talking points. The bulk of that (not all) happened during a time when the church was merely an institution, a vast political one at that. Those that took part in such nonsense were not saved. This is why we must be vigilant to keep institutionalism out of the church. I am sure you are aware millions have been lost to communism, socialism, purely political wars. It is our sinful human nature to destroy life. I am not anti-agnosticism I am just pro- free thought. I am sure you understand.

  10. darklight says:

    Thanks for your comments HOPEANDCHANGE. Some good points made from your perspective. Enjoyed reading this very much. We are not going to agree on everything but that is the beauty of being human and also living (for the time being) in a free society.

    Firstly, I do not expect people to think like I do (heard that one before!), so please don not think that I am trying to indoctrinate people, I will leave that (and brainwashing) to Islam, the Zionists, the charismatic and fundamental church, the media and government. I would encourage people to do what I did and that is to take a step back and go and study the origins of religion. It will take you to some interesting places and it will make you think that even though, not proven (just like the authenticity of the bible itself) something is just not adding up. You will soon find that that bubble of a world that you live in called “faith” pops and everything changes. But I would expect that most pastors, televangelists, the Vatican and the rest of them would not want you doing that…and that is another story.

    Secondly I am not an American, I am Welsh (UK for those who don’t know where Wales is, believe me there are many), so I am trying to come from a universal perspective rather than an local one, so if I have made any errors based on your national perspective, then please accept my apologies. Still one thing that is the same is the church.

    Also, please note that I am not “pro-abortion”. I would say that it is a part of society that does treat life and death as a form of convenience. As for respecting choice, yes…but in responding by taking a man’s life as it goes against teachings or instruction that is only based on a point of faith and not anything based on physical evidence. (That is a minefield believe me!!). The bible which Christians claim to be the absolute inspired word of God has a lot of contradictions that have been weakly explained away by theologians who are merely “protecting the asset”.

    Let me finally sort out this freethinking issue, because it seems like I have touched a raw nerve here. Of course, like I said before, freedom of choice has to have boundaries, but a lot of the problems (greed, killing, lies, social dysfunction) are because of the way that the world system has been created. It is based on owning things. Money has a lot to answer for.

    Fundamentalist Christianity, despite the fact that it boasts “freedom” is based on rules…don’t lie to me and fool yourself into thinking that you are free to think anything or say anything that goes against the doctrine of the church. I have seen people who have questioned their leaders and what has been taught and they have been “spiritually executed”. “You have a rebellious spirit” is the best line of them all. Anyone who says anything that goes against the flow is castigated big time and branded a heretic.

    As for the pluming and Christianity adapting from its origin…well, they best get rid of Christmas, Easter, most of the symbols that they love to put on their cars and the way that the charismatic meetings are going, they are almost identical to new age/pagan ceremonies, with laughing, dog barking, contacting angels, positive confession (nothing more than spells) and other mystical things happening all the time, the list is endless.
    Don’t get me wrong, you have to have rules and laws in life, the result other wise is anarchy.

    I do also love the fact that everything is blamed on the “sinful nature”. ” The one thing that Christianity has succeeded in is making you feel like a piece of crap…Personally I blame the teachings of Paul and “his” gospel for this. Jesus had some amazing things to say and the only thing that he did criticise was the religious system (funny that isn’t it) as they had a corrupted belief system but he loved the “sinners” and never told them how low they were. Yes there have been millions killed to what was political wars, could not gree more and the reasons behind these wars are a very long subject indeed. What I will say is that “leaders” cause wars, not the people and yes that is where you will find “the sinful nature”

    This could go on and on and this is my last on this subject. I am not interested in playing the right and wrong game. This began as an article about the murder of a man who technically was responsible for committing murders who worked in a church. There are limits to the freedom that can be expressed, it is society that is messed up.

    Once again I do not expect people to think like I do and I don’t expect them to agree with me. I am a little surprised that HOPEANDCHANGE decided to perform a character profile on me. You don’t know anything about me at all; in fact I am trying to help people, like the true church tries to help people, like those to are trying to free the minds of the masses.

    Come one HOPEANDPEACE…give us a smile J

    Love, Peace and respect to you all

  11. lyn says:

    ‘Darklight’~ your statement, ‘Jesus had some amazing things to say and the only thing that he did criticise was the religious system (funny that isn’t it) as they had a corrupted belief system but he loved the “sinners” and never told them how low they were.’ Contrary to what you believe, the Lord Jesus Christ did indeed point out sin in the lives of those He spoke to…”The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband: For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly. The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. ” John 4:17-19
    Christ did not ‘rake her over the coals’, He mercifully, lovingly pointed out her sin of adultery and sexual immorality, without necessarily calling it such. So, Christ did indeed point out sin, but He did it graciously.

    Also, could you back this claim of yours with proof – “The bible which Christians claim to be the absolute inspired word of God has a lot of contradictions”?

    BTW, NOWHERE in the Bible are we commanded to celebrate Easter {this ‘title’ is not even biblical}, or Christmas {again, this has it’s origin in man, NOT God}. There isn’t enough space here to go into lengthy details on either of these ‘holidays’. BUT, every unbeliever willingly takes time off work whenever either ‘holiday’ rolls around!!

    You also say this, “I do also love the fact that everything is blamed on the “sinful nature”. ” The one thing that Christianity has succeeded in is making you feel like a piece of crap”.
    So, do you think this abortion doctor should have felt high self-esteem every time he killed an unborn child? Do you think a pedophile should feel great joy and happiness every time they sexually molest a child? Do you think the thief who beats an elderly lady to within an inch of her life, all over a few bucks, should feel good about himself?
    Every human being does have a ‘sin nature’, including you and me. Have you ever told a lie? Taken something that did NOT belong to you {that includes possibly a piece of candy as a child, or cheating on taxes as an adult}? Have you ever looked at another woman, or man, and lusted in your heart {Christ teaches about this in Matt. 5:28; you are guilty of adultery if you’ve done this}? Have you ever used the Lord’s name in vain? Do you love others just as you love yourself? You have a sinful heart, as well as a sin nature. This is due to the fall of man back in Genesis.
    You seem to have some misunderstanding about how true born again believers live; not by tons of rules and regulations, dos and don’ts like the ‘self-righteous’ religious live, but by the desire to want to please our God. We desire to bring glory to the One who saved us. Surely you understand, somewhat, what it’s like to love someone and want to do good things for them? That stems from the heart that loves, not a calloused, mechanical ritual that lists ‘do’s and don’t’s’. A heart that has been changed by the power of God no longer desires what it once did; the sins once loved are now detested by this new heart given by God.
    Here is what the Lord Jesus Christ teaches comes out of EVERY human heart, including yours and mine, “For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:These are the things which defile a man” Matt. 15:19,20
    Did you notice what Christ says about all these things that come from within our own hearts? They ‘defile’ a man. ‘Defile’ means unclean, profane, unhallowed. Every person who has ever lived is rotten to the core. We all continue in wickedness day in and day out. It is ONLY when God Almighty intervenes in our lives and humbles and saves that we change.
    There is much confusion in your post, and I understand why. You have strong opinions, but you lack understanding of sinful mankind. You have obviously been influenced by different types of ‘organized religion’, i.e., the charismatic movement, word of faith, perhaps confusion over various denominational differences…so it is understandable why you think and feel the way you do {to a degree}. You claim society is messed up, why is that? Is it not because ‘man’ wants to do things ‘his way’, and in so doing, sins and rebels against God? What you are seeing is this exact thing being played out before your very eyes…a society that condones murdering unborn children, yet squawks when the murderer himself gets murdered. Understand, I do not condone murder, but can you see the hypocrisy in all of this? As sexual immorality, sexual perversion, greed, idolatry, selfishness, and wickedness of every kind tighten it’s grip on a world spiraling out of control…know this ‘darklight’…the King of Kings is coming again. He is coming in judgment, NOT as a child in a manger that everyone gets ga ga over, but as a Lion, with hair white as wool, fiery eyes that pierce through to the heart of man and lay bare the motive behind your thoughts, deeds, and actions, and a two-edged sword. He will not be gracious to you at this point, for He has come to bring judgment and destruction on a world that has repeatedly rejected Him and lived in wickedness. Now is the time to repent and receive Jesus Christ; you have absolutely no guarantee of a tomorrow. The very breath in your lungs and beat of your heart proves God is gracious.
    Judgment is quickly approaching, the increase in wickedness is an indication of such. May God be merciful to you, open your spiritually blind eyes, deaf ears, and dead heart; may He save you.

  12. wearymom says:

    Amen, Lyn!

    Here is a short video clip which I hope darklight will take a few minutes to view:

  13. darklight says:

    Strewth…it is a shame that I express an opinion, I don’t claim to be absolutley right and I am not personally criticising anyone. Yet out they come…and very quick you are to criticise me. Be very careful…honestly, be very careful. You think that you have it absolutlely right and talk down to me, the way they always do.

    Thank you for trying to “save me”. I have been down that road and found a dead end many times. I do have an uderstanding about wanting to please God as you said and let’s be honest now, it is about rules because the old testament laws still do apply to you. Jesus did “I have not come to abolish the law but to fulfil it”. So in order to please God you have to try and keep these rules (which incidentally, it is impossible to keep).

    Everything you tell me is based on a dangerous principle called “faith” which to a degree has it’s place in our lives; however to live your life based on a book that was put together for political purposes and who’s (in parts) authenticity is under question is a very dangerous way to live, mainly as it (and has done many times in the past) be open to twisted interpretations.

    There are certian Christians who need to get off their “high horse”, stop looking down on others who just “don’t match up” and have a different world view and please look at yourself. Jesus himself said it “let him without sin, cast the first stone”.

    God has been very gracious to me, in ways you cannot imagine and my perception of him has changed because I left the influence of the church, went back and studied greek, hebrew, history of the bible, the books that were (convieniently) non cannonised as scripture.

    You won’t listen to me, the same as a few years ago I would not listen to someone who told me that the Good Book was a product of man and not completley inspried by the divine. I would call you a heretic. Since I have started from stratch, got rid of all the tosh I was told to be true and went through the whole thing, that all is not what it seems.

    I am nobody special, I make mistakes like the rest of us. I love to discuss the meaning of life with people but I have to say that when it comes to talking to evangelical christians, Jehovah’s witnesses and other dogmatic religions I always hit a brick wall…why? becasue you are so, absolutley convinced that you are right.

    Judgement is quickly approaching indeed but not in the way that you think. I guess that you have been told that all those who are “saved” are going to hell. That is a lie. If Christians really studied the bible at it’score (hebrew and greek) apart from taking the word of the pastor who was taught by someone else, you would see that it does not exist. The only judgement given to Adam and Eve was death not hell. The hebrew word that was mistranslated hell was “sheol” which means “the grave, the pit or the unseen”. The greek variant of this word is “Hades” which is found when Jesus was talking about the church and the gates of “hell” (mistranslation) it is death not hell. Also Jesus uses another word “Gehenna” 13 times in the gospels and in every occasion in the KJV it is mistranslated into hell. Gehenna is a rubbish dump which was always uesd to burn rubbish, NOT HELL and Jesus used that word litterally not symbolically. Still it is a good tool to terrify the people into submission. Also if you want to get funny with me you can mention the lake of fire in the book of Revelation, that is also translated Gehenna and is refered to as the “second death” and those who’s name do not appear in the book of life are cast there. Where did all this fire and flames and demons with pitchforks tormenting the sinners come from? The good old roman ctholic church to scare the people, that evil teaching has carried on through the years and is yet another tool to keep you under control.

    But then again, you will say that I am wrong, that i have “another spirit”, I am an anti-Christ. That is so far from the truth. I JUST STUDIED. I took time to find out what was truth and what was not. I cannot make you beleive it, you have to find it yourself.

    God is merciful to me every day and I am thankful to Him for every breath. I am just saddened that I cannot have an opinion that differs from certian “enlightend” people and to be told that I am going to be judged.

    Ivy, I wish you well on your journey. I would just like to challenge you to get off the bus that you are travelling on and just take a look around. Go and study this bible, I mean really break it down and look at the beginnng and the end of it, you will be shocked by what you will find…or you can just stay where you are and beleive what you have been told to believe. You won’t though I can tell by the things that you have said.

    I am not spiritually blind or deaf and my heart is fine thank you and as for the confusion, I am for the first time in years as clear as crystal. If you really study what the Fundamentalist Christian belief really says, it is one really confused one. Here is an example…take one of the ten commandments “You shall not kill”, yet God commanded His people on a number of occasions to undertake mass genecide on their road to promised land (it is there as clear as day). I know what you are going to say “these people were evil and sinners”, but they had no concept of that, they were just wiped out. Something just does not make sense here. I could mention the envy commandment and then God is calling himself jealous, the list goes one. In fact the OT portrait of God does not make him out to be a good guy at all.

    I don’t want arguments and I do encourage a good discussion, but please don’t belittle me, just becasue you think you have all the answers, believe me you haven’t, you just don’t know it yet.

    My last point on the sinful nature. I have known people who have been Christians for well over 20 years who are just the same people they were, having the same problems that they had then only now, they are more and more frustrated that they cannot change and they all feel that they have let God down and it has been the teaching of the fundamentalist church that has cripled them instead of making them grow. Instead they carry on living inside this “bubble” of a life being told all the time that God wants to change you and yet they don’t change after years of prayer and beating themselves up. For these people who really are trying to be something, it is an emotional rollercoaster of psychlogical torture and the church response will be to blame the person “…well they have not fully submitted to Christ” I have heard them all.

    Thanks for your comments Ivy…let’s see if you will let it go now or will the aboslute need to be right get the better of you.

    Love, Peace and respect to you all :)

  14. darklight says:

    sorry…lol…it’s is Lyn not Ivy….My aplogies :)

  15. lyn says:

    Let’s start here darklight, you said -‘Jesus did “I have not come to abolish the law but to fulfil it”. So in order to please God you have to try and keep these rules (which incidentally, it is impossible to keep).’

    You are correct in saying God’s law is impossible to keep. Christ fulfilled the law in that what the law couldn’t do, He has done. NO ONE could live up to God’s standard of perfection given in the law. The law cannot save, it can only condemn. Christ saves all who come to Him to the uttermost. There is freedom in Christ; freedom from the bondage of sin. That does not give one a license to sin; Christ sets the lost sinner free from his/her bondage. Christ and His finished work on the cross is what reconciles lost sinners to a Holy God. He has paid the price for all who repent of their sins. There is no set of rules to follow, there is instead a heart that beats solely for Christ that desires nothing more than to serve Him.
    You keep insisting on rules and regulations; let me clarify for you. You are referring to self-righteous religious types. For example, the Roman Catholic church, which insists on works to earn salvation. This is NOT true salvation {just because someone claims to be a ‘Christian’ does NOT make them one}. True salvation cannot be earned by anybody. ONLY GRACE saves anyone. It’s only when the God of the universe looks with favor upon a lost sinner dead in his/her sins that they are saved. We add NOTHING to the equation…salvation is of the Lord. “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. ” Ephesians 2:8,9. You fail to understand g-r-a-c-e. It is incomprehensible to the human mind how God’s grace works, surely we must add a work of our own in order to be saved. BUT, the word of God says different. G-R-A-C-E is what draws us to Christ and saves us. I am not trying to ‘save’ you, nor could I. You cannot even save yourself; it’s only when a sinner is crushed by God under the weight of his/her sins and cries out to Him for mercy and forgiveness that they are saved.

    In one breath you state this concerning God’s authoritative word, “however to live your life based on a book that was put together for political purposes and who’s (in parts) authenticity is under question is a very dangerous way to live, mainly as it (and has done many times in the past) be open to twisted interpretations.”
    THEN, you turn around and quote from it!!!”Jesus himself said it “let him without sin, cast the first stone”. You are a very confused individual; what do you believe and what do you base your beliefs on?

    You claim God is merciful to you, which God are you referring to? Certainly not the one found in the book you claim isn’t authentic. You are simply weaving a web of deception, you are forming and creating a ‘god’ of your choice, a god to suit what you choose to believe instead of seeking the God revealed in holy writ.
    BTW, I don’t claim to be ‘right’ about anything. What I do claim is the authoritative word of God, this same word will be used to judge all who reject truth.

    Your misconstrued studies on ‘hell’ are interesting. From Rev. 20:15, ‘And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.’ All who have rejected Christ will be have to pay the penalty for their sins. What is that penalty? Eternity spent in the lake of fire. Lake – gr. – limnē- translation – LAKE.
    Fire – gr. – pyr – translation – FIRE. It’s clear as a bell, there is eternal torment for all who refuse to repent of their sins and receive Christ. There is only ONE WAY to heaven darklight, “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me” John 14:6
    Those who reject Christ will indeed spend eternity separated from God in eternal torment.

    Let’s go over Luke 16:20-26 as Christ Himself teaches on hell…
    ‘And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;And in HELL {gr. hadēs -meaning ‘Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead, later use of this word: the grave, death, hell-In Biblical Greek it is associated with Orcus, the infernal regions, a dark and dismal place in the very depths of the earth, the common receptacle of disembodied spirits. Usually Hades is just the abode of the wicked, Luk 16:23, Rev 20:13, 14; a very uncomfortable place. Hades is from the root word eidon meaning ‘to perceive with the eyes, to perceive by any of the senses, to know-i.o.w. those in hell/hades will definitely be aware of their horrific surroundings} he lift up his eyes, being in TORMENTS {from the gr. word basanos meaning ‘torture, torment, acute pains, of those in hell after death- from the root word basis, meaning ‘stepping, walking’. Those tormented in hell are continually walking through the fires of hell in complete agony} and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am TORMENTED IN THIS FLAME. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.And beside all this, between us and you there is a GREAT GULF FIXED: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.”

    There is NO denying hell, fire, torment…Christ Himself teaches this. You are twisting God’s word to fit YOUR personal set of beliefs, so when you say, ‘If Christians really studied the bible at it’score (hebrew and greek) apart from taking the word of the pastor who was taught by someone else, you would see that it does not exist’, you are calling Christ a liar, for He proves you wrong in Luke 16.
    “But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the LAKE WHICH BURNS WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE {this needs NO explanation} which is the second death.”
    Matthew Henry provides sufficient commentary on the ‘second death’…”They could not burn at a stake for Christ, but they must burn in hell for sin. [2.] They must die another death after their natural death; the agonies and terrors of the first death will consign them over to the far greater terrors and agonies of eternal death, to die and to be always dying. [3.] This misery will be their proper part and portion, what they have justly deserved, what they have in effect chosen, and what they have prepared themselves for by their sins. Thus the misery of the damned will illustrate the blessedness of those that are saved, and the blessedness of the saved will aggravate the misery of those that are damned.”

    If you do not believe in ‘hell’ then what do you think Christ died on the cross for? You are a mess friend, you simply want to create a ‘god of your understanding’. a god that would not dare throw anyone into any lake of fire, a god that will let you continue on living any way you choose w/o any divine authority. You can worship this self-made god of yours darklight, but the very hell you deny exists will be where you will spend all of eternity; all because of prideful ignorance and rebellion.
    You understand NOTHING about the sinful nature of man, how can you? You reject God’s word as infallible, you base everything you believe on some mysterious studies you have done. The truth is, when you pick and choose, as you have done, then you end up with a mishmash set of beliefs.
    What I say and believe is based SOLELY on His word, and His word is what I stand on. The Lord Jesus Christ is my rock, my foundation, His truth found ONLY in His word is revealed to all whom He saves through His Spirit. Your ‘religion’ is based on the wisdom of ‘self’, and will not save your soul.

    As for your trying to provoke me with this ditty, ‘let’s see if you will let it go now or will the aboslute need to be right get the better of you.’…I do not argue with the same motive you do, I fight for truth, truth found ONLY in the Holy Word of God. May Almighty God be glorified through His people, may He be forever praised, for He alone is worthy!!!

    Your ramblings are confusing, you reject the Bible, then you try and quote from it…you simply cannot cherry pick what you what to believe out of God’s word. Either you believe it from Genesis to Revelation, or you don’t.

  16. lyn says:

    One more thing darklight, you misunderstand hell, and the lake of fire. They are not the same thing. When a lost sinner dies, he/she goes to outer darkness/hell/ the place of the dead until the great white throne judgment. THEN the Christ rejecting sinner is cast into the lake of fire.
    Here is the final judgment of wicked mankind…
    “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. ”
    Did you see how hades, death and hell were all cast into the lake of fire? This is the second, spiritual death for all who were in hades, hell; they were there awaiting the final ‘verdict’. Their sentence has been served, and they now will face the penalty of their sins, for all of eternity.

  17. wearymom says:

    Lyn has laid it all out very well for you, darklight. I hope you will ponder seriously what she has written. It is not a matter of being ‘right’. It is a matter of being saved from the judgment to come.

    I would like to make some comments on a few things you stated.

    “God commanded His people on a number of occasions to undertake mass genecide on their road to promised land (it is there as clear as day). I know what you are going to say “these people were evil and sinners”, but they had no concept of that, they were just wiped out.”

    You make it sound like you have extensively studied the Bible, but I suspect, from the statements you make, you have never read it cover to cover even once. What you say here is not true. If you have indeed read the Bible, you would know that the nations God executed judgment upon were indeed very wicked…so much so that they were a stench in God’s nostrils. They were sacrificing their own children to a false god, engaging in unspeakable behaviors, worshipping and building altars to false gods. If they were not destroyed completely, but left to dwell in the land, they would be lead the Israelites away into their abominable behaviors. Actually, the Israelites did not obey God completely in driving out these nations and that is exactly what did happen…they fell away many times and began worshipping false gods. In His mercy, over the generations, God continued call His people back to Him because it was through them…the Jews…that the promised Messiah would come. You say these people were just wiped having no concept that they were evil. That is not true. The knowledge of good and evil resides in all men…God put that knowledge in each of us. They had consciences which they ignored continuously so they became hardened to the point that they would no longer listen to the voice of God within them.

    “I could mention the envy commandment and then God is calling himself jealous, the list goes on.”

    When God says He is a jealous god, it is not the same kind of jealous we mean when talking about sinful mankind. When we are jealous, it is because we are coveting something someone else has… it out of selfish motives. It is the kind of jealously that arises out of a sinful heart. God’s jealousy is actually love in action. He will not allow us to have other gods in our lives…not because He is selfish, but because He knows that our very lives and eternal destination depends on our devotion to Him and Him alone. He is not jealous OF people…He is jealous FOR them. He knows there is no other way for men to be saved except through Him. False gods cannot save anyone. It is out of love for us that He is jealous for us…wanting us to come to Him and be saved so we can live with Him for eternity. I am glad He is jealous for me!

    “In fact the OT portrait of God does not make him out to be a good guy at all.”

    What OT are you reading? As a just God, He WILL judge sin. Absolutely. But, (and I am in my 5th reading through the entire Bible right now), what I see over and over again throughout the Old and New Testaments is a God who is long suffering, merciful, a God of love who has provided a way of salvation when He didn’t have to….sending His own Son who took the punishment we deserve for our sin. God is both just and good. He WILL judge sin because He is just. But because He is good, He has provided a way to escape judgment. Which you will experience…His goodness or His judgment? The choice is yours.

  18. darklight says:

    Hello

    I was under the impression that those who are of the “fundamentalist Christian persuasion” are all about fairness and freedom. That does not seem to apply when it comes to having an opinion.

    The rules of your postings state:

    No profanity.
    Be nice. Attitudes not reflective of the light of Christ will result in posts not being approved. We are adults, and can disagree in a civil manner.
    Do not attack or insult another poster or your comments will not be approved.

    I refer to item number 3. I feel that I was attacked by both Lyn and wearymom just for having an opinion and my responses in which I neither judged or insulted them was somehow not put on the site, yet you allowed both of these people to judge me and tear me to shreds. Well I am insulted, but it won’t stop you taking away their posts and leaving the ones on where my opinions are dismembered by these two…makes it look good for the cause does it?

    I have learned that if anyone attempts to say anything that remotely goes against what you have been taught, then God help them. They are “viciously” taken down by the so-called superior knowledge of these people.

    Once again I ask you to remove my postings from the abortion blog please.

    darklight

    • Chrystal says:

      I deleted your posts because they became extremely caustic. I would think you would take it as a gentle rebuke and move on. It’s happened to me on other blogs when I became passionate, and I learned from it.

  19. darklight says:

    I have had my fair share of rebukes down the year in church circles, it was part of training in the ministry and it was something I soon learn to take.

    This was not a rebuke, it is an attack on my character by two Christians just because I said something different, something that goes against the flow. There comments were allowed on and I took exception to being called those things.

    I have dared to look into this book which I held dear to (and in many ways still do) and have found many issues that have made me question it’s origins, that is all. I have a right as a human being to do that. I am not trying to indoctrinate anyone or make them beleive what I beleive. I was just expressing an opinion.

    Something is just not right…if I am wrong, then may God have mercy on me and if he is not may I burn forever, but there are things that I cannot fathom about this belief system after over 20 years of being in it at a pretty high level. If I am right or even partially right, then Christianity as we know it would end and millions of pounds, dollars or what ever would be lost, becasue let’s face it, Jesus is worth a fortune!

    I am sorry if I came across as casutic, that was not the way it was intened but I know what these people are like. I have seen them bragging (in the form of a testimony, of course) about their victories over the heathen, pagan or whatever. They use the bible as a weapon to beat those that question what they believe.

    Don’t ever be afraid of being passionate, it is what makes you what you are. There are people in high places who want to kill the passions of the many (now that’s another story). Don’t give them the satisfaction. It does not matter who agrees with you and who doesn’t, don’t ever lose that passion.

    I wish that wearymom and Lyn would understand that contrary to what they may think I am on the same side as them and you for that matter. The two beasts of the book of Revelation we are all going to have to face and I and many others who have been rejected by the mainstream church will be at your side ready to fight. Things are going on in this world, behind closed doors, plans to kill or enslave us all and give the world over to evil and I for one will not allow that to happen. There will be a “devine” intervention at some point.

    Love, peace and respect to you :)

    P.S. I dont not agree with abortion…tho in saying that I am not a woman, so have no real point of reference.

  20. lyn says:

    Contrary to what you may think Darklight, I have NO desire to make myself ‘superior’ to others, nor do I ‘delight’ in such a thing. I am a wretch of a sinner, not worthy to even draw a breath. It is ONLY the grace of God that has made me what I am this day, a new creation in Christ.

    You cannot be on the same side as me, for you do not hold the word of God as infallible and authoritative. You dislike some of what you’ve read there, so you pass it off as ‘doctrines of men’. Yet, the word specifically states, ‘All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness’ 2 Tim. 3:16
    Also, this from 2 Peter 1:21, ‘For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.’
    The word of God testifies to it’s authenticity. Only God can make it a reality in the minds of those He saves, by grace.
    As for what the future holds, you cannot thwart what God has ordained from before the foundation of the world. There is quickly coming an end to life as we know it, and all who are in Christ should welcome this. Our ‘Blessed Hope’ is about to become a reality, we will see the Risen Lord, and we will be with Him for all of eternity. This is why we understand and hasten the coming of the Lord; this world is NOT our home, nor should we desire or long for it to continue on in its present evil and wicked form.
    No one is attacking you personally, we are exposing your faulty beliefs. No one has attacked your character, we know nothing of your character. It is your mixed up wishy washy self made religion that is indeed questionable.
    Sola scriptura is what we hold to; the Gospel of Christ is powerful and life-changing. May the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob draw you to Christ, may He crush you under the weight of your sins, may He, by His power and great grace, save your soul from eternal punishment.

  21. wearymom says:

    Amen and Amen. What Lyn has explained IS the true gospel of Jesus Christ! The Word of God, the Bible, is true-all of it. And through it, God has revealed Himself to us and His plan of how men can be save from the wrath to come…only through His Son, The Christ, the Lamb of God, who was slain to pay for our sins. When we pick and chose what we will believe, we make a god in our own image…a god we are comfortable with… and that is idolatry.

    In these or my previous remarks, I have not attacked you personally (I don’t know you personally), but have challenged your beliefs…trying to warn you sternly in love that what you believe has consequences for eternity. There IS right and wrong belief. I care about your soul and will risk offending you if need be. What is more important than the eternal destination of your soul? Make very sure what you believe is the truth as God has revealed it. Your opinion or someone else’s opinion is not what counts…it is God’s opinion and He has revealed that in His Word. Have you ever really read it…cover to cover? If not, do so. If you have, then do it again and again, this time asking God to open your mind and heart to what He is trying to say to you. He will do it because He is faithful to reveal Himself to those who diligently seek Him …not seeking a god in their own image so as to be comfortable in their sin…but the true God of the Bible…the holy God of justice who punishes sin and the merciful God who forgives us for Christ’s sake when we turn from sin and trust in Him as the only way to eternal life.

    I am praying for you, darklight.

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